Mold! ?

[Shaunster]

11 hours ago, Fugu said:

by no means am I intending to downplay the hazardous nature of mycotoxins. But I'd say, if one fears fungal toxins from his cigar, then one really, really rather shouldn't smoke at all!

I would agree. I cant confess to know much on the subject, merely this came about because a seller in the UK posted up a bunch of moldy cigars onto facebook for sale and then proceeded to tell everyone it was 'plume' and that as he was a 'cigar specialist' so couldnt be wrong.

 

[Smallclub]

34 minutes ago, Shaunster said:

 merely this came about because a seller in the UK posted up a bunch of moldy cigars onto facebook for sale and then proceeded to tell everyone it was 'plume' and that as he was a 'cigar specialist' so couldnt be wrong.

I saw that. I find it amazing that one of the most prominent cigar merchant persists in his "mistake" (this isn't the first time). This gentleman is either ignorant or dishonest.

[canadianbeaver]

Watching Rosemary's Baby. The baby has mold on it.

 

[David88]

3 minutes ago, canadianbeaver said:

Watching Rosemary's Baby. The baby has mold on it.

 

I think you will find that baby is covered in some mighty fine plume!

[ElReyDel757]

I always assumed temperature fluctuations would be a great concern for mold, even though I have the 65 RH Bovedas?  It is the Fall season where I live now, bringing cool night and morning temps.  I just checked the coolidor and it shows 67 F with my never changing,  standard 65 RH.  So my cooler temp can be 67 - 73 F.  This is ok?

[ElReyDel757]

I always assumed temperature fluctuations would be a great concern for mold, even though I have the 65 RH Bovedas?  It is the Fall season where I live now, bringing cool night and morning temps.  I just checked the coolidor and it shows 67 F with my never changing,  standard 65 RH.  I thought 69 F was lowest it would get.  So my cooler temp can be 67 - 73 F.  This is ok?

[PapaDisco]

6 hours ago, ElReyDel757 said:

I always assumed temperature fluctuations would be a great concern for mold, even though I have the 65 RH Bovedas?  It is the Fall season where I live now, bringing cool night and morning temps.  I just checked the coolidor and it shows 67 F with my never changing,  standard 65 RH.  I thought 69 F was lowest it would get.  So my cooler temp can be 67 - 73 F.  This is ok?

If you put your sticks in at 65/65, then as the temp goes up you're just drying out your stogies a bit as the air absorbs more moisture, until the Bovedas stabilize things.  As the temperature of the air in your coolidor rises, the cigars and the bovedas both release moisture to the air.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if the Bovedas are more aggressive in this than the cigars.  Ray probably knows.

Anyway, the reverse happens when your box cools down at night.  It's a coolidor so the inside temp is going to lag the outside temp by quite a bit.  As that temp declines the moisture in your air will seek to condense if it's not reabsorbed by the Bovedas or the cigars.  

A chart on this that I saw once, showed that at 20C and 50%rH, that if you cut the temp in half to 10C you came pretty damn close to 100%rH.  20C is 68F and 10C is 50F, so you're a long way from that kind of variation, but we're talking about a graph of 50%rH, 65%rH is more water and closer to this dew point risk upon cooling.  In the chart below, 73F is about 22-23C and at 15C (59F) what was formerly 50%rH will hit dew point.  Yikes.   The Bovedas will be scavenging moisture out of the air as this happens of course, and the fact that you've got temperature swings seriously slowed down with your coolidor ought to give the Bovedas time to work.

Maybe Our Humidified Lord of Bacon; El Cornichon Magnifique has a chart like this scaled to cigar temps and humidities?

[canadianbeaver]

As usual, my attention span does not match the glorious efforts of my intelligent and experienced brethren. Yet I have a nice mold free collection that seems to enjoy our company and gets better with age. We are not sophisticated or tricky when it comes to maintenance.

We used to have a giant bag of pretty crystally kitty stuff and black knee highs. It was fun but we don't use it anymore. We do have little black temp and hydrometer things at top and bottom of our fancy wine fridge. In the winter I keep a big full glass of (*gasp*) tap water in a plastic cup at the top. Canadian, eh? 63/68 or so is about right.

Just my story, take it or leave it.?

[PigFish]

I am a little busy with some new orders to hit this in too much detail, so I am going to shoot from the hip here. The caveats first. You know I don't use this stuff. I build a fully controlled humidor so that I don't have to consternate over this crap, yet it interests me certainly. I don't have all the hysteresis data on every element in your or my humidor. This data is important for a true analysis. I don't know if anyone has all the isosteric data on all these elements either, I don't, so all I can do is guess. If that is good enough, I will lend an opinion.

You guys (I am speaking rhetorically) are often blending elements and confusing processes. This can lead you to wrong conclusions. I am not speaking to anyone specifically, it is just what I notice.

In you humidor you have, lets say four substrates. You have space (what you guys call air), you have cigars, you have wood (boxes, humidor material etc.) and you have a water source.

The key (I think) is to match a water source with an environment.

The first theory. While I like the idea of a Boveda pack, it has problems! One problem is hysteresis. This is how fast the water either adsorbs or desorbs from the media. It is the lag time. Take a Boveda pack and put it on a dry table... How long till it disappears? Silly experiment, yeah maybe but it should give you an idea about how fast it gives or receives water vapor. If you put this out in a dry space and it does not disappear in a matter of hours, well, it is pretty damn slow and not good for much in a high air exchange environment such as a humidor that you open several times a day. JMHO! Ultimately, the smaller the space the better they will likely work. It is just a matter of their hysteresis.

Lets divide our discussion briefly into three categories. I am going to separate three types of items. Item one is a hygroscopic substance and item two is an aqueous salt solution. The third is space. Why do I do this? I do it so you can understand that the Boveda pack does NOT act like your cigars, not really. Yes, it does act in a bidirectional manner, like your cigars, but it acts considerably differently. You see the Boveda pack is (or is advertised as) a temperature independent humidity buffer. In theory, it returns the same ErH for any temperature (within reason).

Nothing else in your humidor behaves this way. They all act as hygroscopic materials, except water in space. Water in space is like you hygroscopic material except it works inversely. Let me explain.

As temperate increases, a typically hygroscopic material can hold less water. It depends on water energy and molecular bonds to 'hold' water. Space does not hold water, it merely contains water. There is no bond. Yet as temperature increases, space can contain more water because water (liquid water) acts like a hygroscopic material and high energy does not allow it to bond back to itself. So space works to take water from cigars at higher temperature. It is a part of the system of hygroscopic materials. It is the complementary component making a hygroscopic material work as it does. So space and cigars work to complement each other. Therefore as heat increases water moves from cigar to space and as heat decreases water move from space to cigar... In this way you risk excessive water. Why, well because your 'whole system' may contain enough water to form capillary water in the exposed parts of your cigar, namely the wrapper under certain temperature conditions. Bring into this a water source, the Boveda pack that supplies water whenever the ErH line dips and you can have a big problem. Depending on conditions, you may warm your container and cigars causing the ErH to dip and water to be supplied by the Boveda. When the system cools and if it cools rapidly, you may have a problem of high rH in you system. As the system desires to seek equilibrium the cigars (the wrappers and outer layers) may take this water first. Tobacco has a relatively low heat mass and they change temperature rather quickly compared to other surfaces. You have a theoretical problem as I have written it, of course I could be totally wrong!!!

So why not try a different media for unstable temperature situations? What media? Well maybe back to beads for some of you guys. Why? Because the beads act like your cigars. When temperature increases they give water, like your cigar. In this way they buffer your cigar (yet with a different isotherm certainly). When the temperature decreases and the cigars become more receptive to water, the desiccant will want to take it back as well, like the cigar, so they will compete for excess water and that water will not simply saturate one item in the humidor, namely the cigar.

Why not all three, well I don't have time for that today. But with a constant water supply, again you are back to a situation where you can over saturate a substrate by a low temperature situation where the constant water delivery element simply feeds water to a system that will take more given the opportunity (the temperature).

Ultimately Bovedas are good for stable temperatures but work against cigars in variable temperatures. This is all theoretical of course, none of it has been tested by me, nor will I likely ever get around to doing it. I do what I do to avoid all this... but hope it helps some of you anyway!

When you use these passive materials you need to be more vigilant with your storage. You become the logic controller in your system. You have to watch, examine and take action when you see potential problems. Ultimately, I think that all these problems can be avoided with proper control, meaning you, as the humidor administrator. Managing humidors makes me crazy... I hated it. I was the worst part of cigar husbandry. I get a machine to do it for me today and I don't get mold!

Beads maybe better for some of you. You have to apply the best solution for your environment and if Boveda packs are causing you mold, you need to do something different.

You guys also need a better handle on your ambients. This is just a blanket statement. I keep an old controller sold by others (that I used to try and use in my systems) as a display of temp and rH on one of my humidors in the house. You should look at ambients everyday in your home. They will guide you to what you can expect in your humidor. Remember air exchanges??? Keep an eye on both, all the time... That is the way to stay ahead of this game. ...Or go fully controlled (and there's the pitch).... -LOL

Rereading this, I wish I had the time to write it better, more clearly but I don't. Sorry if it is not really clear.

 

Cheers! -Piggy

[SCgarman]

This thread inspired me to pull all my boxes out of the cabinet and inspect the cigars. I also wiped down the shelving inside the cabinet, as there was quite a bit of dust settled in there. All in all my cigars are in great shape and all boxes seem to be equally humidified. Just a little bit of white mold on one RG corona extra that I forgot even existed and a couple of VR Famosos. Nothing that couldn't be simply wiped off with my fingers. When you have 40 or so boxes, and some haven't been cracked open in years, it's a good idea to spend a few hours inspecting your stock to see how everything is doing, IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PapaDisco]

5 hours ago, PigFish said:

I am a little busy with some new orders to hit this in too much detail, so I am going to shoot from the hip here. The caveats first. You know I don't use this stuff. I build a fully controlled humidor so that I don't have to consternate over this crap, yet it interests me certainly. I don't have all the hysteresis data on every element in your or my humidor. This data is important for a true analysis. I don't know if anyone has all the isosteric data on all these elements either, I don't, so all I can do is guess. If that is good enough, I will lend an opinion.

You guys (I am speaking rhetorically) are often blending elements and confusing processes. This can lead you to wrong conclusions. I am not speaking to anyone specifically, it is just what I notice.

In you humidor you have, lets say four substrates. You have space (what you guys call air), you have cigars, you have wood (boxes, humidor material etc.) and you have a water source.

The key (I think) is to match a water source with an environment.

The first theory. While I like the idea of a Boveda pack, it has problems! One problem is hysteresis. This is how fast the water either adsorbs or desorbs from the media. It is the lag time. Take a Boveda pack and put it on a dry table... How long till it disappears? Silly experiment, yeah maybe but it should give you an idea about how fast it gives or receives water vapor. If you put this out in a dry space and it does not disappear in a matter of hours, well, it is pretty damn slow and not good for much in a high air exchange environment such as a humidor that you open several times a day. JMHO! Ultimately, the smaller the space the better they will likely work. It is just a matter of their hysteresis.

Lets divide our discussion briefly into three categories. I am going to separate three types of items. Item one is a hygroscopic substance and item two is an aqueous salt solution. The third is space. Why do I do this? I do it so you can understand that the Boveda pack does NOT act like your cigars, not really. Yes, it does act in a bidirectional manner, like your cigars, but it acts considerably differently. You see the Boveda pack is (or is advertised as) a temperature independent humidity buffer. In theory, it returns the same ErH for any temperature (within reason).

Nothing else in your humidor behaves this way. They all act as hygroscopic materials, except water in space. Water in space is like you hygroscopic material except it works inversely. Let me explain.

As temperate increases, a typically hygroscopic material can hold less water. It depends on water energy and molecular bonds to 'hold' water. Space does not hold water, it merely contains water. There is no bond. Yet as temperature increases, space can contain more water because water (liquid water) acts like a hygroscopic material and high energy does not allow it to bond back to itself. So space works to take water from cigars at higher temperature. It is a part of the system of hygroscopic materials. It is the complementary component making a hygroscopic material work as it does. So space and cigars work to complement each other. Therefore as heat increases water moves from cigar to space and as heat decreases water move from space to cigar... In this way you risk excessive water. Why, well because your 'whole system' may contain enough water to form capillary water in the exposed parts of your cigar, namely the wrapper under certain temperature conditions. Bring into this a water source, the Boveda pack that supplies water whenever the ErH line dips and you can have a big problem. Depending on conditions, you may warm your container and cigars causing the ErH to dip and water to be supplied by the Boveda. When the system cools and if it cools rapidly, you may have a problem of high rH in you system. As the system desires to seek equilibrium the cigars (the wrappers and outer layers) may take this water first. Tobacco has a relatively low heat mass and they change temperature rather quickly compared to other surfaces. You have a theoretical problem as I have written it, of course I could be totally wrong!!!

So why not try a different media for unstable temperature situations? What media? Well maybe back to beads for some of you guys. Why? Because the beads act like your cigars. When temperature increases they give water, like your cigar. In this way they buffer your cigar (yet with a different isotherm certainly). When the temperature decreases and the cigars become more receptive to water, the desiccant will want to take it back as well, like the cigar, so they will compete for excess water and that water will not simply saturate one item in the humidor, namely the cigar.

Why not all three, well I don't have time for that today. But with a constant water supply, again you are back to a situation where you can over saturate a substrate by a low temperature situation where the constant water delivery element simply feeds water to a system that will take more given the opportunity (the temperature).

Ultimately Bovedas are good for stable temperatures but work against cigars in variable temperatures. This is all theoretical of course, none of it has been tested by me, nor will I likely ever get around to doing it. I do what I do to avoid all this... but hope it helps some of you anyway!

When you use these passive materials you need to be more vigilant with your storage. You become the logic controller in your system. You have to watch, examine and take action when you see potential problems. Ultimately, I think that all these problems can be avoided with proper control, meaning you, as the humidor administrator. Managing humidors makes me crazy... I hated it. I was the worst part of cigar husbandry. I get a machine to do it for me today and I don't get mold!

Beads maybe better for some of you. You have to apply the best solution for your environment and if Boveda packs are causing you mold, you need to do something different.

You guys also need a better handle on your ambients. This is just a blanket statement. I keep an old controller sold by others (that I used to try and use in my systems) as a display of temp and rH on one of my humidors in the house. You should look at ambients everyday in your home. They will guide you to what you can expect in your humidor. Remember air exchanges??? Keep an eye on both, all the time... That is the way to stay ahead of this game. ...Or go fully controlled (and there's the pitch).... -LOL

Rereading this, I wish I had the time to write it better, more clearly but I don't. Sorry if it is not really clear.

 

Cheers! -Piggy

That's your definition of "not too much detail?"  

[PigFish]

... I typed it backwards and forwards simultaneously just to keep my interest!!!! -Piggy

[canadianbeaver]

2 hours ago, NYgarman said:

This thread inspired me to pull all my boxes out of the cabinet and inspect the cigars. I also wiped down the shelving inside the cabinet, as there was quite a bit of dust settled in there. All in all my cigars are in great shape and all boxes seem to be equally humidified. Just a little bit of white mold on one RG corona extra that I forgot even existed and a couple of VR Famosos. Nothing that couldn't be simply wiped off with my fingers. When you have 40 or so boxes, and some haven't been cracked open in years, it's a good idea to spend a few hours inspecting your stock to see how everything is doing, IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See? This is what I would call ongoing, no big deal maintenance.

Sounds fantastic and gratifying.

[PigFish]

11 hours ago, canadianbeaver said:

See? This is what I would call ongoing, no big deal maintenance.

Sounds fantastic and gratifying.

... funny! I don't think I have gone through and opened all my boxes in over a decade! I don't think I actually know what I own anymore!!! -LOL

[canadianbeaver]

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

... funny! I don't think I have gone through and opened all my boxes in over a decade! I don't think I actually know what I own anymore!!! -LOL

Hey, more power to ya brother. As long as you don't have to be too worried about bugs, mold, fictional gold dust or thieves.

And by thieves I mean me at my own stash of course

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, canadianbeaver said:

Hey, more power to ya brother. As long as you don't have to be too worried about bugs, mold, fictional gold dust or thieves.

And by thieves I mean me at my own stash of course

Yes, vigilance to me is data logging. I have a lot of boxes that have never been opened!!! Yeah, go ahead and toss shoes at me; I guess I don't worry much about beetles and other biologics.

Thieves, well, I don't want to shoot anyone, much less myself over taking a good cigar!!! BUT, don't rule it out... -LOL

Hope all is well with you and your hubby... Nice display you have by the way. -Ray

[Guybrush]

UPDATE:

After I cleaned the cigar I put them back in the airtight container. I was unable to decide what to do. Now, 5 months later, I opened the container again and had a look at the cigars. The mold did NOT return! The cigars look clean and pefect. No mold visible. Amazing and also a bit weird.

[Rrm7284]

While one cold be concerned about smoking traces of mould, the real concern should be about smoking tobacco at all. Burning this rather harmless tobacco fungus (those strains usually not containing (much) fungal toxins) is not significantly more a threat to your health as is burning tobacco leaves.

Practical tip for a (mild) mould infestion at the foot: Properly toast and light the cigar without drawing on it, until the ember is in full glow. Initially purge briefly and you are ready to go. Most fungus and its chemical components will have been "ended in smoke".

  Caveat: This is not to be understood as a medical/health advice, it's my personal and highly opinionated view (as usual... ).

Username seems oddly fitting to this discussion (*at least in my unrefined mind). Have to like this opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mcease022]

3 hours ago, Guybrush said:

UPDATE:

After I cleaned the cigar I put them back in the airtight container. I was unable to decide what to do. Now, 5 months later, I opened the container again and had a look at the cigars. The mold did NOT return! The cigars look clean and pefect. No mold visible. Amazing and also a bit weird.

Good to hear. BUT...Did you put a hygrometer inside to monitor them. Or did you not learn from your mistake the first time...

[PHL425]

I just got in a box of HDMDC and put them straight into my tupper with two boveda 62's it also has a box of HMD EE. I noticed the DC's were decently wet upon arrival but figured they would even out with the bovedas. The hygro was at 68 the night i put them in "two days ago", but has dropped to 66 tonight. Should I dry box in the future then put them in the tupper? Sry to hijack the thread Guy. I just got worried abt my cigars from seeing your mold problem. I had to run upstairs and check the cigars in panic mode lol