Raul a no show at the airport to meet Obama.

[losttrailer]

i have the feeling this thread might escalate like the cuba crisis could have and it would be a good idea to close it.

Thanks to Chruschtschow and Kennedy it did not and i could understand the logics of both sides at this time for that matter.

Have yourself a look at the timetable of all the events that led to that escalation and consider yourself if there is really just one side to be held reponsible for that.

After all this years of no effect of the embargo leading to anything better i hope the ending of it will bring better times for the people of cuba. To be fair i cannot remember a single embargo to have changed anything for the better. It always leads to counter embargos or hardened fronts.

Maybe the General will wave Obama goodbye when he is leaving the island and hopefully the news will show.

[Colt45]

As someone who visited Cuba a few times, I'm all for paying a realistic price and rate for goods. But that isn't what is happening, there's wholesale gouging and scamming taking place at this point.

If a run down hotel in Cuba costs more a night than the Wynn in Las Vegas, something is very wrong.

Why? Demand and supply - it's a free market, isn't it...?

It looks like a basic room at the Wynn costs around $100 more on the weekend than the same room midweek - do the rooms suddenly become more expensive to maintain, etc - in this instance I guess it is supply and demand.

I understand that there is gouging going on. I've never been to Cuba, so I don't know firsthand the variations in hotel / room accommodations, but if there is a certain level of "quality" (for lack of better term), perhaps it's relative to what's available in Cuba and not elsewhere. Again, no doubt some are taking advantage.

For kicks, let's say Mandarin Oriental comes in and builds a ginormous hotel(s) capable of handling a large number of guests on a regular basis, and charges around what the Wynn Vegas does. If enough people chose the MO versus some of the older hotels, might it eventually drive down the prices at the older hotels to a more realistic level?

Supply, demand, competition.

I'm not advocating steel and glass towers - just using an example. With more and more free enterprise, there's bound to be some teething pains

[SmokeyJoe99]

He was obviously too busy talking with AT&T and Hilton about upcoming plans

[El Presidente]

As someone who visited Cuba a few times, I'm all for paying a realistic price and rate for goods. But that isn't what is happening, there's wholesale gouging and scamming taking place at this point.

If a run down hotel in Cuba costs more a night than the Wynn in Las Vegas, something is very wrong.

I book the same hotels in Oz time and time again. I know them. I know the staff. Good facilities close by. Good without being exhorbitant in price.

most hotels here have now gone to dynamic pricing. The price changes by the hour based on supply and demand.

My same room can be $133 a night or $600 a night if there is major event in town. I change my plans when hit with the latter.

[El Presidente]

i have the feeling this thread might escalate like the cuba crisis could have and it would be a good idea to close it.

As long as members respectful and play the ball and not the man, then it can stay open.

This is a monumental event in history. The outcomes affect many friends as well as our own love of Cuban cigars.

We should be able to discuss the politics and ramifications with reason and passion. Done properly it is no different to discussing it with friends at the bar. When is the last time you agreed 100% with your friends at a bar over anything

In the background is the analysis to tomorrows game between the Tampa Bay Rays and the Cuban National Team in Havana. Good days.

[eswary]

a picture is worth 1000 words, no matter where you stand

That's badass

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[Fuzz]

Ken how about this . . .

Let's see how you would react if Russia placed nuclear missile bases on OZ . . . all pointed at Brisbane, Sydney etc.

I would say probably the same way the USSR reacted when the US had Jupiter missiles in Turkey and Italy.

[Ken Gargett]

Ken how about this . . .

Let's see how you would react if Russia placed nuclear missile bases on OZ . . . all pointed at Brisbane, Sydney etc. Let's not white wash why this embargo occurred by minimizing the serious reason it was imposed in the first place. Let's also not forget how evil the Castro regime was, especially in the early years, to it's own people. There have been many good reasons to keep the embargo in place over the decades, even if those do not still resonate with people today.

As a BTW, who cares about Castro not meeting Obama at the airport? It was probably Obama's team who requested it. Castro would have loved to have had the photo opportunity, but Obama wouldn't have wanted those optics.

we are in complete agreement re the airport.

as to the embargo, i'm not criticising or supporting its initial implementation (it might be an interesting discussion for another day - and i might be a lot more supportive of the initial implementation than you might imagine). i think you can look at both sides. but the reality is that it has been kept in place far far too long.

i have no argument with you about the evils of castro at all, though it is convenient that those who wish to push that line neglect the fact that castro was able to gain power largely because of the enormous resentment to the then government of batista who was propped up by the states. but no two wrongs...

but let's remember the reason it was put in place in the first place. as i said above - IT WAS PUT IN PLACE THREE YEARS BEFORE THE MISSILE CRISIS. IT HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE MISSILE CRISIS. it was put in place because castro nationalised american oil companies. he did that because the american government cancelled sugar contracts and refused to sell oil to cuba. reasons built up - on both sides. but one of those reasons was not the missiles.

even if it had been, the missiles went fifty years ago.

so what was the reasoning behind keeping the embargo in place? you say many good reasons? human rights? sure, but neither of our countries is pristine when it comes to human rights and if it is good enough to impose/maintain an embargo for that reason then why not on so many other countries? remember that the states had to be dragged kicking and screaming into sanctions against south africa (reagan was strongly opposed). if they are good reasons, surely they are just as good a reason to apply elsewhere? this is one of the reasons many people around the world perceive the states as a bully. they see this as the states saying "we are not going to impose sanctions/embargos on a lot of countries that deserve it but will impose them on a tiny little defenceless country like cuba". it does not sit well.

sure, castro was appalling to his own people but this was the same era where segregation was still in effect in parts of the states (and yes, we had the disgraceful white australia policy and so on). there is an old legal saying pertaining to torts, about coming to the table with clean hands.

as for russia pointing missiles at us, i have always assumed that they have subs that could do just that if they really wanted to bother.

[Ken Gargett]

My take on it - Obama wanted to make clear he is visiting Cuba, not visiting the Cuban gov. alone, as he will be meeting up with representatives of other groups that are as important to him. Like clergy, dissidents, students and entrepreneurs, if I got his agenda correct from the news. A picture with Raul at the airport would have sent out a different message. This way, I for one receive Obama (and by taking his family with him) as a more liberated vistor.

that is a really good point on which we have not really focused. the itinerary is very much a visit to cuba, not to the govt.

[mygar]

I think what many are alluding to is that the Cuban missile crisis went a long way towards keeping the embargo in place... it was one of the scariest moments in American history that cant be understated.

[planetary]

Agree with those who think this is a complete non-issue. Moving on.

[Ken Gargett]

I think what many are alluding to is that the Cuban missile crisis went a long way towards keeping the embargo in place... it was one of the scariest moments in American history that cant be understated.

no question whatsoever. scary for the entire world. our friend above talked about the timetable. there is a brilliant book called 'one hell of a gamble' by historians Fursenko and Naftali. if you can find a thriller that is more nailbiting, i'd love to read it. a while since i read it but i have a recollection of robert kennedy's messenger, carrying the final correspondence that would decide the fate of the world, getting stuck in a lift as the clock ticked down. anyone with any interest in international politics, especially this part of the world, really should read it.

i agree it was instrumental in keeping the embargo in place (and no one would argue that the crisis was not a good reason to keep it in place), though there is no justification for using it as a reason to cover the last five decades, give or take.

but without wishing to be pedantic, the references to it here all pretty much suggest it is why the embargo was enforced and i have no doubt that if you asked (not just americans), at least 95% would believe the missile crisis to be the reason. to be honest, until i read stuff on the subject, i had assumed it was the reason. and it makes sense that people believe it. but that surely can't be a reason for maintaining it?

[stogieluver]

no question whatsoever. scary for the entire world. our friend above talked about the timetable. there is a brilliant book called 'one hell of a gamble' by historians Fursenko and Naftali. if you can find a thriller that is more nailbiting, i'd love to read it. a while since i read it but i have a recollection of robert kennedy's messenger, carrying the final correspondence that would decide the fate of the world, getting stuck in a lift as the clock ticked down. anyone with any interest in international politics, especially this part of the world, really should read it.

i agree it was instrumental in keeping the embargo in place (and no one would argue that the crisis was not a good reason to keep it in place), though there is no justification for using it as a reason to cover the last five decades, give or take.

but without wishing to be pedantic, the references to it here all pretty much suggest it is why the embargo was enforced and i have no doubt that if you asked (not just americans), at least 95% would believe the missile crisis to be the reason. to be honest, until i read stuff on the subject, i had assumed it was the reason. and it makes sense that people believe it. but that surely can't be a reason for maintaining it?

I started this **** storm, which really has turned out better than I thought it would after the first few posts. I'm glad everyone has, for the most part, been civil. Gotta love FOH'ers (and the Mod's).

Now, Ken, my belief is the reason it has been maintained all these years is politics, pure and simple. And I'm not trying to oversimplify this. Florida, in the Electoral College, is most often, if not always, the most important State for a Presidential candidate to win. If you want the White House, you MUST win Florida's Electoral votes. Who has controlled the majority of the swing votes in Florida since the Revolution took everyone's private and business property with no compensation and sent all those people north to Miami, with a huge hatred for all things Castro? That's the reason, and the only reason, no politician, in either party, has gone against the block of votes. Those first generation exiles are dying off now, and the younger generation doesn't carry the same hatred, at least not to the extent their parents did, so politicians are seeing an opportunity to perhaps win the State's votes and also satisfy the majority of Americans' desire to end the embargo.

[mygar]

I will look into the book... seems to be an interesting read. I assume also, that a good many congressman that held office during and after... and people at the State Department could not let that experience go with respect to the embargo.

[Olga]

Ken how about this . . .

Let's see how you would react if Russia placed nuclear missile bases on OZ . . . all pointed at Brisbane, Sydney etc. Let's not white wash why this embargo occurred by minimizing the serious reason it was imposed in the first place. Let's also not forget how evil the Castro regime was, especially in the early years, to it's own people. There have been many good reasons to keep the embargo in place over the decades, even if those do not still resonate with people today.

As a BTW, who cares about Castro not meeting Obama at the airport? It was probably Obama's team who requested it. Castro would have loved to have had the photo opportunity, but Obama wouldn't have wanted those optics.

Wow, what? The embargo had nothing to do with the nuclear missile crisis.

Btw, you made "evil" Castro richer every time you puffed on a Cuban cigar.

[Ken Gargett]

I started this **** storm, which really has turned out better than I thought it would after the first few posts. I'm glad everyone has, for the most part, been civil. Gotta love FOH'ers (and the Mod's).

Now, Ken, my belief is the reason it has been maintained all these years is politics, pure and simple. And I'm not trying to oversimplify this. Florida, in the Electoral College, is most often, if not always, the most important State for a Presidential candidate to win. If you want the White House, you MUST win Florida's Electoral votes. Who has controlled the majority of the swing votes in Florida since the Revolution took everyone's private and business property with no compensation and sent all those people north to Miami, with a huge hatred for all things Castro? That's the reason, and the only reason, no politician, in either party, has gone against the block of votes. Those first generation exiles are dying off now, and the younger generation doesn't carry the same hatred, at least not to the extent their parents did, so politicians are seeing an opportunity to perhaps win the State's votes and also satisfy the majority of Americans' desire to end the embargo.

i don't think there is any doubt that this is absolutely correct. of course, whether it is right or not is another matter. if it had been politically expedient to dump the embargo decades ago, it would be nothing more than a footnote.

sadly such politics happens all around the world.

[Ken Gargett]

I will look into the book... seems to be an interesting read. I assume also, that a good many congressman that held office during and after... and people at the State Department could not let that experience go with respect to the embargo.

again, i am sure this is true.

one of the most interesting people we have met in cuba was their international minister for trade. terrific bloke. he was at a table at a dinner, sitting by himself and we happened to end up at the same table (imagine that happening here or the states!). turned out that he was in the cuban embassy in moscow during the missile crisis. fascinating bloke.

but definitely have a look at the book. if you/anyone has an interest in the crisis and that period, you'll love it. often see naftali interviewed on shows like pbs newshour or historical specials (not just on cuba).

[AussieCanuck]

Whatever the case, I'm sure Obama will be looked on more favorably by Cuba and the Cubans than these three amigos

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[DrunkenMonkey]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/03/20/obama-cuba-trip/

"Wielding an umbrella on a rainy Havana afternoon, Obama and his family stepped off of Air Force One and were greeted by top Cuban officials but not Raul Castro. The Cuban leader frequently greets major world figures upon their arrival at Jose Marti International Airport, but was absent on the tarmac. Instead, he planned to greet Obama on Monday at the Palace of the Revolution."

Are you sure the teapot is big enough for the tempest? I hope he didn't use the wrong fork at the dinner.

[Orion21]

Wow, what? The embargo had nothing to do with the nuclear missile crisis.

Btw, you made "evil" Castro richer every time you puffed on a Cuban cigar.

Did I state that was the reason why it was imposed? The Cuban government took billions of dollars of private property away from US Citizens and then allowed the Russians to build nuclear missile bases pointed at the USA. The nuclear missile crisis didn't cause the embargo, but it is the reason why it has lasted 60+ years. The US government would have been able to negotiate with Cuba over money, but once they allowed Russia a launching pad for their missiles it became a policy based on principal to make them pay no matter how long it would take.

[PigFish]

Did I state that was the reason why it was imposed? The Cuban government took billions of dollars of private property away from US Citizens and then allowed the Russians to build nuclear missile bases pointed at the USA. The nuclear missile crisis didn't cause the embargo, but it is the reason why it has lasted 60+ years. The US government would have been able to negotiate with Cuba over money, but once they allowed Russia a launching pad for their missiles it became a policy based on principal to make them pay no matter how long it would take.

Arguing with socialist sympathetic sycophants is a waste of your efforts my friend...

There are those around the world that will blame the USA for everything! If we fight anyone, it is our fault. If we don't fight them, it is our fault... If our interests don't coincide with their interests we are always wrong. I don't give a damn anymore!

While I love and respect my many international friends here, their country's position on what my country does, I could care less about. When we separate our personal relationships for ones of nationalists, from my country to yours... stuff it!

None of our counties are perfect, yet no one wants to talk about the good we do. With 100+ (I am guessing) counties trading with Cuba (just so that they can have their own Caribbean whorehouse and a cheap place to vactaion) there is nothing that these "higher moral standing" counties could do with Cuba. So if you are judging the 'result Cuba' on anything other than Cuban communism, then you can look at your country and call yourselves failures!

Of course Cuba still gets the majority of their food and medicine from the US, humanitarian aid is not embargoed... But that does not matter.

I hope the embargo ends my friends and you guys can all enjoy the sight of fat, white, US tourists on the beach, with their iPads and bottled water... Then, you might actually see a middle class in Cuba, when the family of commie thugs become fertilizer. You will see Micky-D's and Walmart. And as the country finally slips from the hands of a dead, slave-state socio-economic plan based on fantasy, you guys will go right back to blaming the US for "destroying" your happy slave-state island... and personal discount playground! Me, I don't think you want a free Cuba (many of you). You want your quaint little whorehouse island to remain cheap so your middle-class incomes will impress the locals... like it has done for decades now.

The place looks prime for a new Trump tower! Be careful what you wish for, when you are thinking of yourself and not really the Cuban people! My money is on the populace loving to work in an American based establishment and the corresponding dollars that come with it!

We gave Cuba its freedom from Spain... and it is my guess that they won't see freedom again until we give it back to them. If the cycle stays the same, they will again get duped by the false god of socialism, and the whole cycle may just start again! It is my hope that in the last 50 years they have learned something the sycophants have not, that my own countrymen don't apparently know, that is the false god that is communism/socialism is an old, dead theory that leads to slavery. We shall see!

-Piggy

[Tobbot]

With all due respect PigFish... Imo, the middle class around here definitely isn't thriving. As effective wages go down year after year, the middle class does nothing but shrink. I do agree with some of your points, but I don't think there is a species at anytime on this planet that has answered the problems we're facing now...over population from a dominant life form, the likes of which has never been seen. Capitalism surely isn't that, do you think?

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[PigFish]

With all due respect PigFish... Imo, the middle class around here definitely isn't thriving. As effective wages go down year after year, the middle class does nothing but shrink. I do agree with some of your points, but I don't think there is a species at anytime on this planet that has answered the problems we're facing now...over population from a dominant life form, the likes of which has never been seen. Capitalism surely isn't that, do you think?

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I don't really want to talk to you about this my friend. Not because I cannot take up the banner of my beliefs, but because it will raise hell on this board.

I will leave you with this. How old are you? And, have you ever really experienced capitalism?

For the record, there is noting in my home that is not somehow regulated by a federal law. That is not capitalism. The free market is not free...! The stock market, the bond market, the currency market... all manipulated and controlled by masterminds.

We did have a system that worked, flawed, but worked. It caused the US to become a world power in decades, the decades that took other countries thousands of years. It was in the recognition of humans being human, freely human and not slaves to the state, regardless of the leader(s) of that state. The woes that you lament above are not the result of excess freedom and capitalism. They are the result of top down centralized control by those that cannot likely run a home business, let alone a 300 million man (rhetorically) economy...

With all due respect... over population!!!? I just have to ask. Where do you live and when was the last time you were on an airplane?

Thanks for asking! -Piggy

[CaptainQuintero]

Get off the fence piggy, I can't stand it when people can't come down on one side or the other in an argument!

[PigFish]

Get off the fence piggy, I can't stand it when people can't come down on one side or the other in an argument!

Com'mon over mate. I will buy you a nice cigar and we can fix the worlds problems...! -LOL

(or create more, which might be more fun!!!)

-Piggy