Terrorist attack on school 140 dead.

[pbibby]

They know you can only control these people by religion.

This is a good point too. A counter point, perhaps, to Ken's (and others) argument that the world would be better without religion. I'm not trying to get too much into that argument (I truly do respect all sides as long as we can discuss it like adults) but perhaps it is more the perversion of religion that is so catastrophic to humanity.

[rsanz]

timothy McVeigh was raised catholic, an atheist and set the bomb off to protest the federal government. Are you referring to some other timothy McVeigh so as to compare modern day Christians to al queda? That sounds like something you'd hear on NPR or MSNBC.

Point of order m'lud...

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/an-accurate-look-at-timothy-mcveighs-beliefs-cms-15532

[...]

This is a good point too. A counter point, perhaps, to Ken's (and others) argument that the world would be better without religion. I'm not trying to get too much into that argument (I truly do respect all sides as long as we can discuss it like adults) but perhaps it is more the perversion of religion that is so catastrophic to humanity.

Yes and not really. They way classic religions were designed, with God as ruler, priests (rabbis, mollahs and others) as guides/texts interprets and common people as followers, uses a typical hierarchical structure which, when used for managing human individuals and collectivities, is the perfect system for spawning manipulative behaviours (see human history from the beginning till now).

The problem at its core is not any individual religion itself but the concept behind most known religions. For easier to accept examples, think of politics as we know it, corporate management hierarchy, even parent-children relationships... It seems even God (regardless of being real or imagined) can't suppress human nature...

Religion, once you pull out your own feelings of belonging from it, is a culturally exclusive concept which can only work in a divided humanity. Once you know your neighbour and said neighbour holds different religious views, tensions and clashes are to be expected because of our very human lower instincts.

God or religion is not the problem; humans are. However, once you are aware of the problem, you cannot stop yourself from thinking about eventual solutions...

Abnegation of religion has always sounded like a quick fix but has never been tried for obvious reasons

[Fosgate]

I simply wanted to level the playing field on the debate. McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic but he said himself he never really got is and claimed Science was his religion. As a christian I can name a couple of legitimate arguments I find against Christianity is 1. The Klu Klux Klan (extremists) which was hanging, burning, executing blacks up through the 60's and even later in the name of not only race but our lord and father. and 2. Jonestown Guyana mass suicide (Cyanide in Kool-aid) of religious followers. Many may separate that these people worshiped him and were not Christians. Granted they were not catholic but they spun off from a christian faith and they became enchanted with this guy. I have seen this time and time again growing up as my mother searched from Pentecostal church to another, how people idolized ministers.

To me, too many churches are run by the same asses from your high school years that treat it like a popularity contest as they enact class and social warfare against other members within the church. When I go to church I am there for a positive impact, not someone to tell me how bad of a christian I am for one reason or another or people to criticize me for not being as christian as they are. I'm supportive of the idea that people have a support network as enlightenment or spirituality to help them get through their rough week as we all have. I respect people having those ideas whatever the faith.

What I find disturbing is when one religion has a lot of followers that believe extermination of another for not believing as they do. Sure Christianity and others seek out new followers but for some reason the extremists (ISIS) of Islam think it's not the 20th century and bring about the practices not witnessed since the crusades. I am also aware I live in a country that has been pegged as the country that is the center of Christianity and must be destroyed for more than three decades by extremists and even the country of Iran as every Friday they held public gatherings praying for death to America. There are places even in America where I would not be able to go with high populations of Muslims...however, knowing what I know, I would not wonder into an U.S. urban black neighborhood either.

As a cigar forum I hope we are all deep thinkers as men and women we sit around smoking and joking with our chums but when alone we split atoms as we contemplate life and our place in the world. I hope we find we can discuss topics such as this as we explore and debate the questions that pop up. I give everyone equal opportunity and nobody, race, creed, flag is obscure from equal scrutiny or debate. The point of my whole rambling is we can sit here and point fingers at religion but in reality...what religion condones the murder of children? None! I'll be bold enough to state these are mad men cut off from normal society using religion as and excuse to take out their anger on the world. The rest of societies views on religion have no bearing in the atrocities these people committed.

[LordAnubis]

I like your post Fosgate, especially the last paragraph!

[helix]

140 Kids......this is wickedness beyond all aspects of humanity , forget about religion.

[JustinThyme]

I really love having a good cigar with friends........Dont care about their religion

[MIKA27]

It is not a Muslims responsibility to denounce the actions of Al Qaida, it is not a Christians responsibility to denounce the actions of pedophile Priests.

SPOT ON!

This isn't a faith of anyone's, it is beyond words IMO and it breaks my heart that Children were targeted, as young as 2 years old hunted down and shot at close range. They have hardly had the chance to Live life and some of Pakistan's future in part has now been wiped out. It takes one person to find the cure for Cancer or a new technology that could change the world for the better and we have lost 140 people, children that could have made that difference. And even if they remained just normal children and later adults, mch like the majority of us, this was their lives and they should have lived that life to the fullest.

Ken, I don't think there is any punishment that would be just and satisfying for these monsters should they ever be caught. Death to them is an escape yet life equally being tortured still can not bring closure to such an atrocity.