Ginseng Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Ahh… Wilkey my friend, those heady days of cigar pseudo science and subjective speculations! Don't you miss them? You, me and Jonathan, I miss those days! Cheers all! -the Pig Indeed. How much clearer, how much more comforting to have never glimpsed the dark side of the moon. Having seen, the bright side looks less pristine. If only I still worked in a lab with ICP (not the Juggalo variety) MS and HPLC. I would have put this stuff in the column long ago. My apologies Wilky. I'm normally up to the task of citing peer review articles like I have with the hygroscopic polymers that I discuss ad nauseum (for the scientific laymen) on this forum with Piggy. I admit it my first post did seem a tad lacking. No worries. Work, kids, service...I empathize. The main point I was trying to make is that when one brings in certain language and terminology to a discussion, and further, this language has the veneer of the scientific, we must be especially self-critical of the context of use. There is an essential but often subtle difference between being authoritative and appearing to be posing an argument from or appealing to authority, a logical fallacy. The last thing I would want to do is to contribute to the perpetuation of "old wives tales" about that which can be, but perhaps has not been, subject to empirical work. In other words, experimentation. As Ray observed, this is a hot button issue for me and one that I've been tilting at for years in the cigar community. I suppose it is my windmill on the Finca de Habanos. Wilkey 1
PigFish Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Indeed. How much clearer, how much more comforting to have never glimpsed the dark side of the moon. Having seen, the bright side looks less pristine. If only I still worked in a lab with ICP (not the Juggalo variety) MS and HPLC. I would have put this stuff in the column long ago. No worries. Work, kids, service...I empathize. The main point I was trying to make is that when one brings in certain language and terminology to a discussion, and further, this language has the veneer of the scientific, we must be especially self-critical of the context of use. There is an essential but often subtle difference between being authoritative and appearing to be posing an argument from or appealing to authority, a logical fallacy. The last thing I would want to do is to contribute to the perpetuation of "old wives tales" about that which can be, but perhaps has not been, subject to empirical work. In other words, experimentation. As Ray observed, this is a hot button issue for me and one that I've been tilting at for years in the cigar community. I suppose it is my windmill on the Finca de Habanos. Wilkey I think that besides the commonality of camaraderie in the cigar community in general, this link played a large part in our becoming friends. While I can enjoy a good yarn with the rest of them I absolutely abhor the pseudo scientific junk that makes its way though the cigar community. I think you know that about me already… despite my wallflower personality…! -R
StingMeadery Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 … still don't know why I have to wake up at 4AM every morning to pee! I mean, why 4am? Cheers all! -the Pig 4.00 AM - is the time the Chi circulates through the bladder meridian.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
... Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I never had one, Get colt to draw me one. I love his new one . But toss the word in anyway! Should work for a relevant avatar 1
SaintLuis Posted July 29, 2014 Posted July 29, 2014 What a load of hogwash. It is scientifically proven that bloom/plume is caused by magical pixies making sweet love on your cigars... It's true.
Maplepie Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Should work for a relevant avatar NO WALNUTS!! Also, cheers to ross n' ray. we'll take this to PM. hoping this original question will be resolved in around a year when i get some free time to mess around in the lab. If this means anything to anyone, i'll be: pulling the plume through a plug to draw out the polarity columns. then taking each through the Chromatography to figure out the relative layers. and then running NMRs on everything. the NMR is the only thing i can't do at home so it'll have to wait. but i will need at least 0.1 grammes of plume which is NOT easy to get. i'm sure that within all the Canadian BotLs here, we probably have a collective weight of 0.5 grammes Edit: Need to cheers Wilks too... i contacted him the most about this!
Wing Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I have never seen this Plume/Bloom ever before... only white and green mold. 1
Fuzz Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Had some lovely plume on my HdM DC I smoked last night.
PigFish Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 NO WALNUTS!! Also, cheers to ross n' ray. we'll take this to PM. hoping this original question will be resolved in around a year when i get some free time to mess around in the lab. If this means anything to anyone, i'll be: pulling the plume through a plug to draw out the polarity columns. then taking each through the Chromatography to figure out the relative layers. and then running NMRs on everything. the NMR is the only thing i can't do at home so it'll have to wait. but i will need at least 0.1 grammes of plume which is NOT easy to get. i'm sure that within all the Canadian BotLs here, we probably have a collective weight of 0.5 grammes How do you know you are getting plume, not fume, gloom or doom??? -LOL Actually, I a quite interested…. it is just that there is hardly anyone else on the site that is stranger than I am, that "I" can actually make fun of, instead of the other way around!!! Keep me posted! -R
PigFish Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Oh, by the way MagPie… if you don't use Ross's avatar, I will put you on the ignore list… ! …nuts or no nuts! -R
Maplepie Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Oh, by the way MagPie… if you don't use Ross's avatar, I will put you on the ignore list… ! by the way our emails go, do i get them quicker!? here. we'll settle for a grey area... though i do miss Ross's little mouse scrambling around the forum brandishing his colt
Wing Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I honestly dont believe it exsists... Habanos mentions white mould and thats it. Of the many boxes I've opened aged or fresh, of the many Google images I've searched for, of the many posts in forums, I've yet to come across anything that resembles crystallization. White marks yes, white mold yes, green mold yes, a box that contains 24 instead of 25 sticks yes, misprinted by Habanos yes... but never crystallization. Can anyone post a pic of it?
Maplepie Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Can anyone post a pic of it? in an attempt to collect a sample, some of it is gone, now. scraped them with a sharped razor and collected more tobacco hairs than plume
amosnaim Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 My experience - A year ago, we left for summer vacation so the house wasn't air conditioned for about two and a half weeks. When I got back I found lots of my cigars covered with plume that was easily removed. the humidity level at the humidor showed 80%. Hope this helps the discussion.
Maplepie Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Yupp. Mate of mine stores his cigars at 80% and 15 degrees. Plumes up within 2 years. Especially his lower boxes that get 83-85% sometimes. Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.
Wing Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 in an attempt to collect a sample, some of it is gone, now. scraped them with a sharped razor and collected more tobacco hairs than plume I too have experienced the occurrence on your pic, past and present. Its an evenly spread soft coat of mold. It occurs over time given the cigars are stored at higher humidities. If humidity fluctuates, then the process is speeded and appears in blotches but are essentially the same thing. Also, when this happens, it will usually occur around the head of the cigar first, given its the dirtiest and most handled part of the cigar during manufacture.
El Presidente Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I too have experienced the occurrence on your pic, past and present. Its an evenly spread soft coat of mold. It occurs over time given the cigars are stored at higher humidities. If humidity fluctuates, then the process is speeded and appears in blotches but are essentially the same thing. Also, when this happens, it will usually occur around the head of the cigar first, given its the dirtiest and most handled part of the cigar during manufacture. We rally need to see a close up micro of the plume/mold. Lett's see if we can do it.
Smallclub Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 My experience - A year ago, we left for summer vacation so the house wasn't air conditioned for about two and a half weeks. When I got back I found lots of my cigars covered with plume that was easily removed. the humidity level at the humidor showed 80%. Hope this helps the discussion. You have experienced MOLD, not plume.
Ryan Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I've thought about this before too. I've been lucky, that someone I know has a shop that has vintage cigars in stock, I've opened and looked through hundreds of boxes of cigars 20-80 years old. I've never seen anything that I could definitely say was plume. Mold, plenty of times, plume I don't think there is even a reliable single description of its appearance. Crystals, sparkles, dust, powder, white, grey, green, gold?? Also I've never seen a reliable definition of what causes it. "Oils rising to the surface"??? Really? I have a feeling, and some of this comes from experience, that it's a term thought up by retailers trying to market mold as a positive. Retailers all over the world have to display their cigars very damp, that's understandable, so the wrappers don't crack all over every time an over-eager customer gives them a squeeze. 2
Ryan Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Also, when this happens, it will usually occur around the head of the cigar first, given its the dirtiest and most handled part of the cigar during manufacture. I have heard the same thing, makes sense. Also the head of the cigar is usually the only part that has gum to stick the wrapper and the cap. Anybody who has seen a roller making cigars can testify how filthy that stuff can get. It sits around in an open jar all all day collecting every passing spore like an agar plate.
PigFish Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I've thought about this before too. I've been lucky, that someone I know has a shop that has vintage cigars in stock, I've opened and looked through hundreds of boxes of cigars 20-80 years old. I've never seen anything that I could definitely say was plume. Mold, plenty of times, plume I don't think there is even a reliable single description of its appearance. Crystals, sparkles, dust, powder, white, grey, green, gold?? Also I've never seen a reliable definition of what causes it. "Oils rising to the surface"??? Really? I have a feeling, and some of this comes from experience, that it's a term thought up by retailers trying to market mold as a positive. Retailers all over the world have to display their cigars very damp, that's understandable, so the wrappers don't crack all over every time an over-eager customer gives them a squeeze. … the retailer myth relation… BINGO! Bravo! Look I am not picking on retailers okay, but most the myth and folklore about cigars comes from a profit incentive. I have noting against anyone making a profit on just about anything. I do have a problem with overpriced bullshit and since the cigar industry is generally full of it, I have to pose the question just about anytime one of the etherial questions comes up. Pixie dust is as good an answer as anything… You know, I could probably bag a handsome profit by starting a website and advertising my 'stuff' as promoting 'plume' or other 'pixie' products. It just "ain't" right, no matter who is doing it. I don't know how they keep their lunches down. I have known my share of people who would gladly sell a neg-am loan to a first time home buyer… so it is not isolated to the cigar trade, I assure you! It just a part of the world we live in! BS is in no short supply, nor is there a shortage of those profiting from it… -Piggy
PigFish Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 by the way our emails go, do i get them quicker!? here. we'll settle for a grey area... though i do miss Ross's little mouse scrambling around the forum brandishing his colt . . . . . . . … and that is all I have to say! (10% of the avatar=10% of the reply) 1
Colt45 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Not unexpectedly, some interesting, thought provoking notions. For what it's worth, this past weekend, I was able to smoke a Hoyo des Dieux which was visibly covered, giving me cause to pose the questions. While I don't feel it's necessarily a bad thing, I've never really felt it a desirable trait.
Maplepie Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 i think i'm feeling bacon wrapped calamari tonight.........
PigFish Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 i think i'm feeling bacon wrapped calamari tonight......... …cannibal! - … is tasting good the same as having good taste? I wonder! -P 1
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