Freezing Question

[Croz71]

Living on the edge! How much do you have invested in cigars? Would you leave a classic car sitting in a car park at night unlocked with the keys in it?

My wineadors are temperature controlled.

The cigars never get over 68f.

I'm happy with my setup

[sw15825]

This is inaccurate. I routinely freeze and enjoy a cigar shortly after...Now I would agree not to freeze anything you've had around and I do not freeze anything coming from a vendor but anything custom or bought in Cuba gets frozen. Freezing is practiced on anything being EXPORTED through legit streams before it leaves Cuba anything else is not.

Right on imo.

[nem]

I find it very interesting when people make statements like this.

First let me say that I am not picking on you mate, but I would like to know where this data comes from, subjective personal experience notwithstanding.

I would like to see, if you have it available, some evidence that compounds for taste in tobacco are in fact altered, distorted and or destroyed at temperatures below 0C.

-Piggy

Absent long term studies on the cigar maturation process, our opinions on this matter will inevitably be based on varying personal experiences, untested and speculative hypotheses, and information from other fermented products (e.g. wine, tea, etc) that may or may not be applicable to cigars. With that said, let's not take ourselves too seriously here.

There are two points worth noting before proceeding. (i) Generally speaking, when we freeze cigars to prevent beetle infestations, we are not just changing the temperature, but also the humidity, as well as subjecting the cigars to a thawing process. (ii) Divergent personal opinions on and experiences with freezing cigars may very well be a result of inevitable variations in how cigars are frozen and then returned to more conventional storage conditions.

One reason a cigar improves with age is because tobacco continues to ferment after the cigar is rolled and boxed, but of course this process requires enzymes. It is well known that high temperatures can denature enzymes, but moreover, based on my limited knowledge, freezing and thawing may too damage the structure and in turn affect the function of enzymes. Frankly, we don't know the specifics of how such processes may play out when cigars are frozen and then thawed, but it does give reason to take caution.

Another concern is the effect that freezing, and more importantly thawing cigars will have on polyphenols. Wine, like cigars contain polyphenols, and they precipitate when frozen wine is thawed (google "Mass Spectrometry in Cancer Research" by John Roboz, specifically pages 321-322). A cigar is not a wine, so this may or may not be applicable, but if thawing a cigar yields similar results it may affect the role that polyphenols can play in a cigar's long term maturation.

[Smallclub]

Have you compared a box bought from a shop in Havana (non freezed) versus a box with the same box code, bought from an importer (freezed in Havana, and in some cases freezed again by the distributor)?

[DrunkenMonkey]

Living on the edge! How much do you have invested in cigars? Would you leave a classic car sitting in a car park at night unlocked with the keys in it?

What is it that you think is risky about his setup? As to your analogy, it's more like leaving the car parked at night unlocked in a locked garage.

[nem]

Have you compared a box bought from a shop in Havana (non freezed) versus a box with the same box code, bought from an importer (freezed in Havana, and in some cases freezed again by the distributor)?

I have not had that opportunity. One particular concern is how Habanos SA freezes cigars versus how most of us are able to perform the procedure. According to Cigar Aficionado magazine (http://www.cigaraficionado.com/webfeatures/show/id/2390), Habanos SA uses industrial freezers to freeze cigars for five days at -4 F, and then the cigars are slowly brought up to 65 F. However, most of us lack the necessary equipment to engage in an equally gradual thawing process.

[nikesupremedunk]

While I'm not saying nem is wrong because that's their personal experience, I would suggest anyone new reading this not to be turned off to freezing and conduct their own experiment.

Personally I found no difference between a frozen stick vs one that wasn't. My humi is not temp controlled so freezing is a must. I was turned off at first because it seemed like a complicated process but it's actually really simple. Throw the entire box in a big zip lock bag, then repeat that 1-2x. Throw it in your home fridge and take it out 7 days later. It's really that simple!

[PigFish]

Absent long term studies on the cigar maturation process, our opinions on this matter will inevitably be based on varying personal experiences, untested and speculative hypotheses, and information from other fermented products (e.g. wine, tea, etc) that may or may not be applicable to cigars. With that said, let's not take ourselves too seriously here.

There are two points worth noting before proceeding. (i) Generally speaking, when we freeze cigars to prevent beetle infestations, we are not just changing the temperature, but also the humidity, as well as subjecting the cigars to a thawing process. (ii) Divergent personal opinions on and experiences with freezing cigars may very well be a result of inevitable variations in how cigars are frozen and then returned to more conventional storage conditions.

One reason a cigar improves with age is because tobacco continues to ferment after the cigar is rolled and boxed, but of course this process requires enzymes. It is well known that high temperatures can denature enzymes, but moreover, based on my limited knowledge, freezing and thawing may too damage the structure and in turn affect the function of enzymes. Frankly, we don't know the specifics of how such processes may play out when cigars are frozen and then thawed, but it does give reason to take caution.

Another concern is the effect that freezing, and more importantly thawing cigars will have on polyphenols. Wine, like cigars contain polyphenols, and they precipitate when frozen wine is thawed (google "Mass Spectrometry in Cancer Research" by John Roboz, specifically pages 321-322). A cigar is not a wine, so this may or may not be applicable, but if thawing a cigar yields similar results it may affect the role that polyphenols can play in a cigar's long term maturation.

Thanks for your reply. I believe the first paragraph largely provides me with the data I was after.

For the sake the of academic discussion can I ask generally, when is tobacco not frozen? This is a trick question!

Can tobacco be frozen at all? Another trick question!

If tobacco is considered a solid, a matrix of solids or semi-solid mater, when is it, or can it ever be considered liquid matter?

When I consider the term freezing, like many I would assume, I think of temperatures at or below 0C or 32F. I think in terms of the laymen's use of freezing, meaning specifically the freezing temperature of water.

Water is interesting. Water exists in at least three states that I know of; gas, liquid and solid. The question is, dose water exist in any or all of these states in ready-to-smoke tobacco, or the finished cigar?

Knowing that tobacco is hygroscopic, I know water exists in the tobacco in the gaseous form, typically surface bonded to pathways in the structure. I also know that liquid water, water that can perform capillary action will quickly lead to the growth of mold in our cigars and in tobacco products in general. I therefore must assume, that with the apparent lack of mold growth, there is a point of dehydration where liquid water ceases to exist in "finished" tobacco products, such as a cigar.

This leads me to believe that when I reduce the temperature of tobacco to 0C, I may in fact not be "freezing it" at all! The truth be told, not knowing the existence of entire spectrum of chemical compounds in tobacco in the first place, I may be "freezing" or "thawing" compounds internal to tobacco at just about any temperature!

The bottom line is, I just don't know! Based on ignorance, I suppose that I could conclude that I do take some risk by exposing tobacco to temperatures below 0C. I also know that tobacco is NOT completely free of living organisms not beneficial to my tobacco, and by natures law placed there because they feed on the product. There is certainly a body of evidence (supported by the tobacco industry) that says that the periodic storage of tobacco at a certain temperature (below 0C) for some specific time "discourages' the infestation of these organisms.

So freezing (base on the temperature of water) becomes a risk assessment. Does it do more damage than benefit? Hell, I don't know and I was hoping someone else could prove the claim that they made!!!

I will have to side with the known industry standard risk assessment model and move myself away once again from the "associated analogy theories."

With this said, I will have to side somewhat on the principal premise that if you don't know, don't change it. I assume my cigars were frozen at one point and there is nothing I can do about that. It is (or should be) as real as the knowledge of, harvesting, curing, fermenting and aging (dehydrating and resting) periods for tobacco as they come to be formed into cigars. I further understand that I prefer my tobacco at a certain PMC (percent moisture content) based on the knowledge that tobacco is hygroscopic. If I know what I like, and know of no adverse affects of storing my cigars that way, it therefore behoves me to keep my cigars as close to that level as possible at all time…

I feel better now!

I have reaffirmed that storing my cigars in a stable environment, ready to smoke is best for me!!! -LOL

Thanks for reading! -the Pig

[mash]

Have you compared a box bought from a shop in Havana (non freezed) versus a box with the same box code, bought from an importer (freezed in Havana, and in some cases freezed again by the distributor)?

That would be useful if every box with the same code, and every cigar in each box, was identical. Not the case.

[Smallclub]

That would be useful if every box with the same code, and every cigar in each box, was identical. Not the case.

So what? If the freezing was clearly detrimental, the difference would be much noticeable than that usually found between two boxes…

[mash]

So what? If the freezing was clearly detrimental, the difference would be much noticeable than that usually found between two boxes…

I love these definitive comments. I guess it depends on what level of change you're looking for.

[Smallclub]

I love these definitive comments. I guess it depends on what level of change you're looking for.

What's definitive in "IF the freezing was detrimental"?

The level of change on which I question, is something NOTICEABLE, different from the usual disparity from one box to another.