Global Warming? Maybe Not?

[Wil]

Interesting piece on Curry from Scientific American/Nature:

http://www.nature.co...s.2010.577.html

[Orion21]

A very good report.

[Philski]

People who don't understand why people don't like to see "green" regulations, taxation, etc. on businesses don't understand how economics work. Costs get passed on the consumer. Period. I don't like paying more for anything simply because someone said "it's to save the planet!"

Quite a few things there to pull you up on there, Greg, but just to zone in on one I feel qualified to respond to: 'how economics work' is exactly what drives green regulations and taxes, etc. - however, I think you might have confused the issue. The point is to make more expensive those products and services that don't conform to green regulations, thereby pricing them out of a cost-sensitive market.

I'm not talking about organic food and all that crap - eating a lettuce with slug slime all over it won't prevent your house from blowing away in a mega storm - but penalising and taxing major corporations for dumping chemicals in major rivers, belching out greenhouse gases, other nefarious practices that are surely yet to come to light, etc., etc. hits them where it hurts (or is aimed to).

I'm not going to comment on dark and vested interest parties who are seeing to pursue their agendas at no matter what consequence. They probably exist but are vulnerable to exposure.

Bear in mind that the companies that you buy from and who are charging more because they are being clobbered by green taxes are the guys who are deemed to be doing a 'bad thing'. That bad thing may not be as extreme as driving the planet to imminent environmental catastrophe, but the economic measures are targeted making these guys uneconomical besides their compliant competitors.

[Hugomarink]

I don't doubt that the earth's climate is changing, but that's simply because it's always been changing. I'm absolutely one of the skeptics when it comes to mankind's impact on this constant change in the earth's climate. My reasons:

1. I have a general distrust of any large centralized gov't. Centralized gov'ts tend to use "green" regulations and laws to further increase their power and control.
   
2. I think humans are ridiculously arrogant if they think they can do more damage to the planet than the planet has done to itself over the last 4.5 billions years.
   
3. Hippies are annoying.
   
4. I can't stand the smugness of many of those who are trying to "save" the planet. You and your Prius can pound sand.
   
5. I don't like any movement/cause that uses scare tactics, hysteria, and guilt to try to make its point.
   
6. People who don't understand why people don't like to see "green" regulations, taxation, etc. on businesses don't understand how economics work. Costs get passed on the consumer. Period. I don't like paying more for anything simply because someone said "it's to save the planet!"
   
7. Solar activity also drives climate change. If you can show me how you plan to control the sun's output, then perhaps I'll listen to you.
   
8. Data sample size is limited. The official/historical temperature data goes back less than two centuries. But they're trying to make an argument that things have never been worse? Hermmmm......
   

Just my opinions, of course. But there you have it.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

I'm not sure what type of world you want to live in but it sounds like you'd be OK with it if a big chemical plant set up shop in your neck of the woods and belched toxic smoke in the air on a daily basis and flooded local streams and lakes with toxic runoff as long as you don't have to spend a few extra bucks for their products. Also, it's your problem if it angers you that somebody wants to drive a Prius or some other "green" vehicle. Why do you even care? The more people who drive a Prius means more gas for you. You should be thankful.

[PigFish]

I don't doubt that the earth's climate is changing, but that's simply because it's always been changing. I'm absolutely one of the skeptics when it comes to mankind's impact on this constant change in the earth's climate. My reasons:

1. I have a general distrust of any large centralized gov't. Centralized gov'ts tend to use "green" regulations and laws to further increase their power and control.
   
2. I think humans are ridiculously arrogant if they think they can do more damage to the planet than the planet has done to itself over the last 4.5 billions years.
   
3. Hippies are annoying.
   
4. I can't stand the smugness of many of those who are trying to "save" the planet. You and your Prius can pound sand.
   
5. I don't like any movement/cause that uses scare tactics, hysteria, and guilt to try to make its point.
   
6. People who don't understand why people don't like to see "green" regulations, taxation, etc. on businesses don't understand how economics work. Costs get passed on the consumer. Period. I don't like paying more for anything simply because someone said "it's to save the planet!"
   
7. Solar activity also drives climate change. If you can show me how you plan to control the sun's output, then perhaps I'll listen to you.
   
8. Data sample size is limited. The official/historical temperature data goes back less than two centuries. But they're trying to make an argument that things have never been worse? Hermmmm......
   

Just my opinions, of course. But there you have it.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

Not just your opinion by the way!!! x2

We used to have laws to protect us from the monopoly of large government. That is the biggest, baddest problem on earth!!!

Just my opinion! Cheers, the Pig

[Smallclub]

Obviously, some people agree to live in a world transformed into a trash can if this can avoid them paying taxes

[PigFish]

Obviously, some people agree to live in a world transformed by elites because they cannot think for themselves nor be responsible for their own actions!

[Wil]

Obviously… ah $%^& it!

[Philski]

Obviously, some people agree to live in a world transformed by elites because they cannot think for themselves nor be responsible for their own actions!

Eh?

[Wil]

Politics...

[stukibuilt]

I don't doubt that the earth's climate is changing, but that's simply because it's always been changing. I'm absolutely one of the skeptics when it comes to mankind's impact on this constant change in the earth's climate. My reasons:

1. I have a general distrust of any large centralized gov't. Centralized gov'ts tend to use "green" regulations and laws to further increase their power and control.
   
2. I think humans are ridiculously arrogant if they think they can do more damage to the planet than the planet has done to itself over the last 4.5 billions years.
   
3. Hippies are annoying.
   
4. I can't stand the smugness of many of those who are trying to "save" the planet. You and your Prius can pound sand.
   
5. I don't like any movement/cause that uses scare tactics, hysteria, and guilt to try to make its point.
   
6. People who don't understand why people don't like to see "green" regulations, taxation, etc. on businesses don't understand how economics work. Costs get passed on the consumer. Period. I don't like paying more for anything simply because someone said "it's to save the planet!"
   
7. Solar activity also drives climate change. If you can show me how you plan to control the sun's output, then perhaps I'll listen to you.
   
8. Data sample size is limited. The official/historical temperature data goes back less than two centuries. But they're trying to make an argument that things have never been worse? Hermmmm......
   

Just my opinions, of course. But there you have it.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

Well put. I'm in agreement with all points.

Sent from my mind using telekinesis and Tapatalk.

[stukibuilt]

I'm not sure what type of world you want to live in but it sounds like you'd be OK with it if a big chemical plant set up shop in your neck of the woods and belched toxic smoke in the air on a daily basis and flooded local streams and lakes with toxic runoff as long as you don't have to spend a few extra bucks for their products. Also, it's your problem if it angers you that somebody wants to drive a Prius or some other "green" vehicle. Why do you even care? The more people who drive a Prius means more gas for you. You should be thankful.

Your vignette and what the poster was insinuating based on his observations are drastically different from where I'm sitting.

To be honest I absolutely hate the Prius, not because of the fact that they are anemic and not terribly attractive IMO, but because of the attitude and general smugness of the drivers I've met and seen on the road. I also get cut off more by Prius drivers on average recently. Definitely drinking the kool-aid... Same could be said for us fossil fuel junkies, but I'm not against all hybrid tech and don't go out of my way to talk about it with the unwilling or uninterested.

I dislike the push for EV cars in general because of how involved the government here got and how they squandered our taxes on defunct car manufacturers in the name of the "greater good."

Sent from my mind using telekinesis and Tapatalk.

[Daz]

Climate change is cyclical, I don't think anyone has found that contentious.

Man's activities have accelerated that change.

If you don't believe we have adversely affected the rate of change, why would you wish to take the chance when there are things that can be done in a more efficient and less resource intense way?

[Smallclub]

Consider all these issues exclusively through the prism of (hypothetic) taxation is the most narrow-minded and selfish worldview that I can imagine…

[stukibuilt]

Consider all these issues exclusively through the prism of (hypothetic) taxation is the most narrow-minded and selfish worldview that I can imagine…

There isn't anything "hypothetical" about it, and I personally wouldn't have as much a problem with it if the bean counters were using business sense when allocating the tax dollars. It's one thing to be conscientious and supporting green companies or alternatives, but it's an entirely different situation when you are supporting companies who don't have any backbone and default with impunity. Just my two cents.

If anyone didn't know, I'm referring to Fisker in my post and how they got fat selling cars using government money while taking a loss. If you bought a Fisker, US citizens own more than a third of your car that you didn't pay for.

Sent from my mind using telekinesis and Tapatalk.

[TheBaron]

Like everything in life (apart from the magpie) it's not black and white. The truth no doubt lies somewhere in the middle, but the rabid voraciousness of this new age religion called Climate Change (CC) deters many people from engaging in a logical, reasoned debate without prejudice.

Calling dissenters "CC deniers" shows a real lack of maturity and dishonesty in the debate. Never trust a movement that can't handle scrutiny or dissent.

And trotting out the "97% of scientists agree" line holds little weight with me. Remember, the vast majority of scientists at the time vehemently disagreed with Einstein on most everything - now he's their poster boy.

It's important to know who's funding the studies (and scientists) and thus their motives. Sadly, much science today is as much about business (dollars) and politics.

For the record, I believe in cleaning up our environment (for our own health reasons as much as anything else) and respecting our natural resources. I love nature. Absolutely love it. I just don't believe in or see any productivity in fundamentalism.

For now, the only CCs I'm interested in hearing about are the ones provided by our gracious host.

[Philski]

^

[Jeremy Festa]

2. I think humans are ridiculously arrogant if they think they can do more damage to the planet than the planet has done to itself over the last 4.5 billions years.

Jokes aside, I could take or leave the other statements, even though amusing. But your number 2. point is naive at best.

We humans are masters of our domain. And, we just recently reached a point where we move more earth than all natural forces combined. Think mining, construction, agriculture etc in comparison to the natural environment, i.e. natural erosion, floods and the like.

If we can do that, we can change the climate.

Have a brief read through these docs as a start

http://www.geosociet...173-22-12-4.htm

http://www.nature.co...ws050307-2.html

Cheers,

Jeremy

[Wil]

Jokes aside, I could take or leave the other statements, even though amusing. But your number 2. point is naive at best.

We humans are masters of our domain. And, we just recently reached a point where we move more earth than all natural forces combined. Think mining, construction, agriculture etc in comparison to the natural environment, i.e. natural erosion, floods and the like.

If we can do that, we can change the climate.

Have a brief read through these docs as a start

http://www.geosociet...173-22-12-4.htm

http://www.nature.co...ws050307-2.html

Cheers,

Jeremy

Epic fail. You actually used evidence to support your argument.

[Jeremy Festa]

Epic fail. You actually used evidence to support your argument.

Pretty sure that's the point. I see IMO or IMHO everywhere on this forum. But climate change, and whether or not we can do more damage to the planet than the planet itself, would be more of an informed understanding or belief than an opinion.

My point stems from listening to Dr Karl Kruszelnicki the other day on Triple J radio station. For those that don't know, Dr Karl is a bit of a national treasure. He clearly stated the recent figures of our ability to move earth, matching the natural forces of our environment. So while I am skeptical of many things stated in the media, climate change being one of them, scientific facts have been fairly undeniable for some time.

[Wil]

Pretty sure that's the point.

[Jeremy Festa]

Jokes aside

Oh Ha ha Not really a joke-like topic but appreciate your clarification Wil

[CurtisEss]

It is sad that this has become a political debate. I know of plenty of big egos in science who stubbornly cling to their beliefs, but at least they are well informed and able to support them with data. The well informed debate that comes out of this advances science.

In politics, there are also big egos. But they rarely are well informed about things that they hold strong beliefs about. It isn't clear that uninformed debate does anyone much good unless they like to get angry.

It's good to see that so many of my fellow cigar smokers are well informed on this. I'm not, so I'll stay out of it.

[Wil]

Oh Ha ha Not really a joke-like topic but appreciate your clarification Wil

Haha. Sorry mate!

[El Presidente]

How hard can this be.

Put rubbish in a bin.

Try as best you can to use recycables.

Leave as small an "excess" footprint as you can.

Live well, give your best, give a hand where and when you can.