Sudden Drop Off in RH in my Wineador

[polarbear]

I have a 72 bottle wine fride that has been set up with cedar draws and around 5 pounds of 70% beads

When i set i up i took a little while for the humidity to stablise but it eventually settled in to a steady 68% @18 degrees and stayed there for almost 6 months.

All of a sudden i'm finding that the RH is dropping down to 60%@18-19 degrees and my beads are drying out very quickly. I have 6 hygromiters in the fridge (one every other draw) and they are all calibrated.

The season has recently changed from our Dry season (average temp of 30degrees and 65%rh) to our Wet Season (average temp of 32 degrees and 80%rh).

Aside from the weather, there have been no changes to my situation

Any idea what could be causing this?

If it wasnt for the first 6 months of trouble free operation I would think that i've set it up wrong but as i've said, it was working like a dream for the first 6 months

[Stanislaw]

Oh man these wineadors can be such a headache! This might help or it might not help- these things are quite tricky to troubleshoot...

Based on my experience with the summer months this year, my opinion is that if the ambient temperature in the room starts to increase, the refrigerator kicks into cooling mode more often which can pull humidity out of the air lowering your numbers.... But then what can happen is that the refrigeration system will begin to condensate raising your humidity levels abnormally up.....

This can cause instability that's tough to fix instantly and takes time.... Are your cigars in their own boxes or out in the open? Cigars in their own boxes can be less affected by the up-and-down change in humidity versus cigars that are in the open in that environment....

It's quite possible that you'll need to recalibrate the whole fridge but I'd try adding moisture to the beads to see if they adjust on their own.... Just be careful! You shouldn't expect to see your humidity level adjust immediately, it can take hours and some times days.....

[polarbear]

Its my singles fridge

I figure it contains around 800 loose sticks

The fridge is also a thermoelectric model

When i originally got it working it was brilliant, just had to check the odd gauge every once in a whil and top uo the beads once a month

[LordAnubis]

Is the drain hole plugged and does the fridge produce lots of condensation? Also whats ambient temp/rh outside the fridge? ie in the room the fridge is located?

[polarbear]

Drain hole is un plugged (but has been since I set it up)

It produces a reasonable amount of condensation that drains into a pan of 65% beads

Ambient temp in the room is around 30 degrees

Temp in the fridge is stable at 19 degrees though, according to my hygrometer

[LordAnubis]

Yeah im guessing Stainislaw is correct. Your fridge is prolly running most of the time and the condensation is being by drawing water from the air and hence your air is dryer.

[PigFish]

Mate, I have a pretty good idea what is going on here but as always, without all the facts, tools and the ability to diagnose first hand, I am but guessing.

Usually I spend an amount, a large amount of pixels trying to correct the myths about sealed humidors, desiccant buffers and the like but I have an appointment shortly and I don't have that kind of time. I do wish to mention one thing, however. There is no such thing as a 70% bead desiccant. There are preconditioned desiccants, but desiccants are not like batteries. Batteries will deliver at or near their full rated voltage until they begin to fail. Desiccants are not like that. They transfer water vapor though an ongoing process of diffusion and they adjust to a macro climate or can adjust a micro climate. They do not produce water vapor, they only hold it. As water is removed from them, they dry and become 68% beads, or 66% beads or 50% beads.

Perhaps I can go into greater detail later about what I surmise is wrong with your system. In a nutshell you have design issues. You never really had the system that you concluded was steady. You have likely designed a long term dehydrator, whereas the placement of your hygrometers has fooled you into believing that you had created something better functioning than what you really have. I am sorry to be the bearer of that news! Hygrometer placement is likely part of the problem as they are likely reading the water content close to hygroscopic materials and therefore they have been giving you readings based on the saturation of those materials and not that of the space surrounding the materials.

I believe what you have slowly done is simply dehydrate the contents of your humidor.

I don't thing you have ruined anything, so don't take that from my comments. I do think that you have created a slow dehydrator however, and it has taken this log to show you based on the readings of your instruments.

Humidors should be tested for performance empty and data logged. If you cannot do this, then it is better to emulate a system that another has accurately tested. That is my spin, but I am biased!!!

Cheers! -Piggy

[Skyfall]

Mate, I have a pretty good idea what is going on here but as always, without all the facts, tools and the ability to diagnose first hand, I am but guessing.

Usually I spend an amount, a large amount of pixels trying to correct the myths about sealed humidors, desiccant buffers and the like but I have an appointment shortly and I don't have that kind of time. I do wish to mention one thing, however. There is no such thing as a 70% bead desiccant. There are preconditioned desiccants, but desiccants are not like batteries. Batteries will deliver at or near their full rated voltage until they begin to fail. Desiccants are not like that. They transfer water vapor though an ongoing process of diffusion and they adjust to a macro climate or can adjust a micro climate. They do not produce water vapor, they only hold it. As water is removed from them, they dry and become 68% beads, or 66% beads or 50% beads.

Perhaps I can go into greater detail later about what I surmise is wrong with your system. In a nutshell you have design issues. You never really had the system that you concluded was steady. You have likely designed a long term dehydrator, whereas the placement of your hygrometers has fooled you into believing that you had created something better functioning than what you really have. I am sorry to be the bearer of that news! Hygrometer placement is likely part of the problem as they are likely reading the water content close to hygroscopic materials and therefore they have been giving you readings based on the saturation of those materials and not that of the space surrounding the materials.

I believe what you have slowly done is simply dehydrate the contents of your humidor.

I don't thing you have ruined anything, so don't take that from my comments. I do think that you have created a slow dehydrator however, and it has taken this log to show you based on the readings of your instruments.

Humidors should be tested for performance empty and data logged. If you cannot do this, then it is better to emulate a system that another has accurately tested. That is my spin, but I am biased!!!

Cheers! -Piggy

For the Win!

Ray =

[polarbear]

Ok. I'll put the power and see if I see an improvement over the the next couple of weeks

[PigFish]

David... you slay me!

PB you are not alone. Micro climate management, in an otherwise hostile or under-managed macro climate is not really a small task. I do tend to believe that there is no design that cannot be improved. While in one portion of my brain I believe I posses the next perfect design, I have obtained an ever-present flat spot on my frontal lobe from beating my head against the wall trying to better 'my next design.'

It is an easy call, to say that some amount of variance is inherent in the beast and it is unavoidable. It is easy to say this is the best there is and just stop! I lay my findings on the table for people to scrutinize for the benefit of other members and for the pleasure of provoking an interesting topic on the board here. I encourage others to do the same. I have concluded; there is no perfect active controlled humidor. Each person who keeps cigars decides for himself/herself what level of stability they desire and what level of aggravation they will endure to achieve it. I am no different.

I derive a certain amount of pleasure in helping people solve humidor problems. Most of the time, I tell these folks that they are doing something wrong. I have been there, that is why I am often so hasty to answer. I revisit that same path almost everyday. My path is probably a bit smother than most as I have been over it a thousand times before.

We all have levels of tenacity and doggedness; I am more determined than most on this subject. My interest in cigars is in their taste. Out of that interest has grown this desire to maximize the only effects I can have on them. I can store them in such a way as to preserve them and control their water content. I cannot re-roll them.

This is something that I am currently working on as I am always attempting to refine my definition of stability. I do practice what I preach! I have marked this up to exemplify how I scrutinize my own work.

Here is a situation where my dehydration cycle is overreaching. I feel that if I can avoid the over-reach I can increase the wave length of the dehydration cycle and see fewer cycles. How this will affect the amplitude of the wave form is predictable but it can only be determined empirically. It will be hard to tell if I can cure it within the parameters that I wish to maintain. Experimentation is the only means to the end. At every stage when one tampers with the cyclical nature of controlled space, one creates a new problem as he solves one.

Ultimately, I will settle! I will adjust functions and appliances to what I believe is the best compromise. I will further analyze data and change my programming and activation logic to average out to what will ultimately be my set point.

There are some great lessons here if one reads between the lines. I could adjust the scale of the graph to turn the peaks and troughs into a fuzzy line if I wished! I could call the fuzzy line perfection. Frankly, having a humidor bop around within a few rH of the set point defines excellence, but satisfaction is relative. Humidor performance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder!!! Hell, if I changed my sample rate from 5 seconds to 5 minutes, I would not even have a problem to work on! I made this case on this thread already.

One can only see some of these problems if he looks for them. On the short term, with certain instruments, in certain conditions they may not make themselves readily apparent. The problem may exist even if we don't see it. It just turns short term ignorant bliss, to long term frustration once recongnized.

The desktop humidor is perfect for some. When the cigars get wetter in summer and dryer in winter, or vise versa, suddenly it is not perfect anymore!

Cheers! -the Pig