I'm Baffled

[Webbo]

An 18 btl thermoelectric wine cooler running at 68 deg with 1.5 lbs of RH beads (65%) is constantly stable at 68% RH. Outside RH is around 55% @ 75 deg. The drain hole is plugged. Only have some old boxes and a small desktop in there at the moment (waiting for shelves). All hygrometers calibrated and correct. Beads split 0.5 lb top/middle/bottom. No fluctuation through height or depth of cooler either in temp or RH. Why does it not regulate at 65% RH? Am I right in thinking it must be the beads or ??? It's not a massive cigar issue as I can live with them 68% but I hate things I cannot work out.

Any ideas gratefully received .

Baffled of Bratislava

[Squarehead]

Lack of aircirculation?Put in a second calibrated digital hygrometer at a different location and take it from there.

[Colinb913]

Move the air around, are you sure you have the hygrometers calibrated? What method did you use? Even the salt method is +/-2 percent. Nothing is perfect.

But, I'd be willing to bet the beads are spot on, your hygros are off.

I just went through the same headache, three hygros that all read differently. I salt tested, and even then they were still a little off. I finally said F*** it, and let the cigar oasis do its job, everything is smoking perfectly, and the hygros are still a little off.

[PigFish]

An 18 btl thermoelectric wine cooler running at 68 deg with 1.5 lbs of RH beads (65%) is constantly stable at 68% RH. Outside RH is around 55% @ 75 deg. The drain hole is plugged. Only have some old boxes and a small desktop in there at the moment (waiting for shelves). All hygrometers calibrated and correct. Beads split 0.5 lb top/middle/bottom. No fluctuation through height or depth of cooler either in temp or RH. Why does it not regulate at 65% RH? Am I right in thinking it must be the beads or ??? It's not a massive cigar issue as I can live with them 68% but I hate things I cannot work out.

Any ideas gratefully received .

Baffled of Bratislava

Please take no offense to what I write. The answers, perhaps a bit tongue-in-cheek are designed to better your system.

Your system does not work currently because you misunderstand the nature of the desiccant (your beads) as a buffer, or you have been mislead by purpose or omission by one who has promised you that beaded (or otherwise) desiccants are magic! Or, of course that your equipment is not accurate, or simply the placement of your sensor does not represent the mean value of the rH in the system.

First, no system is perfect! You are looking to defy the laws of physics by creating a completely homogenous environment and while you can better it from a non-controlled random environment, you cannot breach the laws of physics! I build very sophistiated systems and can prove their performance. They are not perfect!

If you don't have a certified, or at least a certifiable hygrometer, you should stop thinking that it is accurate anyway. For the most part, accuracy helps two people with similar accurate instruments to talk about results, but not a lot more. Proof, is in how the cigar smokes and if it stays that way based on your settings. Precision is more important to consistency. Accuracy is merely a talking point amongst two or more people.

You therefore have either no problem at all, or you have too much water in your system. It is that simple.

Lets take a case. You buy 65 rH beads. You put them in a sealed container and they are not 65 rH. What happened? Were you lied to? In some ways yes you were, because someone let you believe by not fully explaining their product that 65 rH is an incomplete figure. That 65 rH has to have a matching temperature figure for you to establish at what points the equilibrium was established for the product.

For the sake of argument, lets say that the bead conditioner assumes that the beads will be used at room temperature, or for discussion 75 dF. You take your 65 rH bead, at equilibrium at 75 dF and move them into a 68 dF environment. The water activity of the air and the bead are no longer in equilibrium and your beads give up water, or take water until such time as the most powerful water source in your humidor, your beads, creates equilibrium. There you have it... It is 68 rH at 68 dF! It is that simple. There is nothing wrong, frankly you are guilty of not understanding the way a desiccant works. This is however just a guess, but a logical and likely correct one.

If, for a moment that you thought your beads were magic, that they would constantly be at equilibrium at any temp and any time they had any amount of water in them, that like a gas tank on a car, as long as there is fuel the car operates at 100%, then you are wrong or have been mislead into believing the wrong thing about your product. That is a magic product that has been described, not a desiccant which many of us use and is commonly sold to cigar smokers.

There of course could be a host of other reasons why this has happened. It is not critical. Take the beads out into your 55 rH room and let them dry some. Put them back in and try again.

The real fun comes when you discover that a handful of beads does not solve the problems of an active sealed humidor, you will likely really be upset when you find that out!!!

When that happens, take a Xanax and post a new thread here!!! -LOL

Cheers. -Dr. Piggy

[Webbo]

Thanks all. Going to look at a few things suggested now to try chase it down a little and see if I can improve things.

PigFish - absolutely no offence taken ( except for your reference to American drugs, I'm an Englishman so a cup of tea or large single malt will suffice). If I am honest, and as a graduate in applied physics I am a little ashamed to say this, I have been a little naive with respect to the beads. I assumed ( yes herein lies my first mistake) that the RH beads would be at an equilibrium of 65 @ 70 deg. I did so on the basis that they are used for cigar humidors where generally (pulls on tin hat) a temperature of 70 deg is as close to an agreed standard temp as we get. Thus I expected maybe a 1% fall off for my slightly lower temp 68/69 deg. My second issue of niavity is my trust in the relative accuracy of the hygrometers I use and have calibrated, although I put that down more to wishful thinking and love and trust of gadgets (60s child thing ,space-race and all). Finally keep up the technical posts, I have tried to avoid reading them (without success) if I am honest as it's a slippery slope for me and I know I will get obsessed with the science side. Well looks like it's too late now, better smoke a cigar, sip a scotch and think about graphs and stuff, sadly a pleasant thought for me.

[PigFish]

From one foil hat to another, cheers.

Whether Xanax or single malt, as one egghead, advanced humidor builder and experienced smoker to another, don't kill yourself (rhetorically) over a few points this way or that way in your humidor.

This stuff is a lot of fun for the science minded. As micro climates go, there are a lot of engineering challenges in building small climate controlled humidors. Welcome to the fight...

Cheers, Ray

[Hiroshiro]

I use the 65 Beads in a 28 count and after plugging the condensation hole and everything I fluctuate from 65-69 but relatively stable at 65 unless it gets really hot in my room or I open the door. Perhaps your beads are a tad oversaturated. What I did was pull them out over night 1 at a time and put them back in in the morning. after a couple of days it turned out fine

[garbandz]

"65 rH is an incomplete figure. That 65 rH has to have a matching temperature figure for you to establish at what points the equilibrium was established for the product..........."

I have posted this in other forums many times that relative humidity is based on a given temp.I have never posted it so eloquently......

[Webbo]

A brief update. Followed all the suggestions, both practical and philosophical. Now the wineador is holding( according to my hygrometers) at 66 %rh @ 68 deg F. With my set up and the humidor more or less full that seems to be the equilibrium for this "sealed box". I'm happy with this, perhaps it would have got there anyway (the laws of physics say It would have Pig) but all the tips helped me to settle it down sooner and made me feel I was in control, well at least in my mind they did, and that as they say "made all the difference" thanks.

[PigFish]

What matters is that you are satisfied! Cheers

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