Machine guns... why living in North Dakota is nice.

[armedak]

Hmmmmm... Yes very silly post. This is a cigar board after all. No more posting about fishing trips Ken. Shooting is a recognized sport just like fishing. The original poster enjoys shooting much like many people enjoy fishing. All he is doing is shooting his guns. Is he hurting anyone or anything? Some people believe fishing should be outlawed because they believe fish should not be tortured, maimed, and terrorized in the name of sport. I don't agree with them but that is their opinion and they are entitled their opinions. You are entitled to your opinion Ken but what is moronic about shooting a rifle at a shooting range?

The point about the analogy of a gun and a car is that both are tools and nothing more. A car can be used as a weapon just as a gun can be used as a hammer if the user so desires. As far as timing goes, if the original poster had been going on about the race car he just bought and was looking forward to racing and some nut just mowed down a bunch of kids in a school crosswalk, would that also be bad timing? No one seems to mind the collatoral damage of automobile deaths, injuries, and property damage which are far greater than anything firearms related.

Our founding fathers in the U.S. protected the right to keep and bear arms as the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights. They believed the Second Amendment would prevent Goverment tyranny and opression of the people. I must say it is somewhat amusing to see the the poster from England say he can't imagine government tyranny and opression of the people. You might want to crack open a history book now and then Bucko!! The following quote is illuminating in that respect.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order." - Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942. [Translation: Hitler's Table-Talk at the Fuhrer's Headquarters 1941-1942], Dr. Henry Picker, ed. (Athenaum-Verlag, Bonn, 1951)

[mazolaman]

Oh dear, you had to keep going didn't you. Erm, Bucko?, WTF.

If you look at my post correctly, I said I didn't think governments would be guilty of PHYSICAL tyranny.

I think they are far more likely to use coercion to dominate these days. For example..you could be mentally

coerced by media into xenophobia, then by a gun, and sit armed to the **** waiting for armageddon.

I do read a fair bit of history.

Using history as proof of the future could be a mistake, as in that case I will await a savage attack from a tyrannosaurus rex when I walk out of my front door.

Both cars and guns are tools. One is for getting from A to B, the other is for killing things, Correct?

[Nate31]

don't really see it much these days. in fact, i would not be surprised if it was export to the states only. but once, was huge. i think the biggest selling wine in the states by miles. and huge here. i think it was a wine spectator selection for top ten value of the year something like 10 or 12 times in a row. which was far and away more than any other wine from any country.

and rob, don't you just love a gun thread!!!

and to our new friend, i see more reason here than i usually do from the pro-gun assembly (sorry, rob, could not resist) but with respect, 'one person out of 300 million'? one? he has been a very very busy lad then.

For sure we have had more than one but my point was that it seems concentrated because even if it happens in NY or LA there are thousands of miles between each location with over 300 million people in between. So we have a shooting at VA tech, with one guy, who according to the law was supposed to be declared mentally defunct by a court, whose records were not updated in the NCIS database (Federal record system) and bought the gun he did the shooting with afterwards. So yes we need to modernize the record keeping system so the Federal check is updated faster and people with Court declared mental issues are not able to buy firearms. I don't see how that effects the other 300 million people who live in this country who have not been declared mentally unfit to own a firearm. The same thing with the Gabrielle Giffords shooting. Many people complained the guy was a loon and the authorities refused to do anything. I don't see why 300 million people have to get punished by restricting their rights because one guy who should have been hospitalized wasn't when the authorities refused to take his case on. I mean it doesn't matter how restrictive gun rights are (to a degree) when the police won't investigate numerous complaints on a person. I mean even in European countries I have been it doesn't do a bit of good if the police won't act on numerous citizen complaints, and a person say in Austria were allowed a permit anyways. All these gun rights are in cooperation with the government, and when a loon is complained upon numerous times its only the government's fault this person is still allowed to go buy a gun be they from the US, Austria, Germany, Norway, Australia, ect.

How about this one? We have lots more here...Ill have to buy them and seek Ken's opinion! Or maybe just go to the store, take a picture, post it, and get told which ones to buy! Almost finished with that first bottle but this is my last Aussie wine for right now.

[Ken Gargett]

Hmmmmm... Yes very silly post. This is a cigar board after all. No more posting about fishing trips Ken. Shooting is a recognized sport just like fishing. The original poster enjoys shooting much like many people enjoy fishing. All he is doing is shooting his guns. Is he hurting anyone or anything? Some people believe fishing should be outlawed because they believe fish should not be tortured, maimed, and terrorized in the name of sport. I don't agree with them but that is their opinion and they are entitled their opinions. You are entitled to your opinion Ken but what is moronic about shooting a rifle at a shooting range?

The point about the analogy of a gun and a car is that both are tools and nothing more. A car can be used as a weapon just as a gun can be used as a hammer if the user so desires. As far as timing goes, if the original poster had been going on about the race car he just bought and was looking forward to racing and some nut just mowed down a bunch of kids in a school crosswalk, would that also be bad timing? No one seems to mind the collatoral damage of automobile deaths, injuries, and property damage which are far greater than anything firearms related.

Our founding fathers in the U.S. protected the right to keep and bear arms as the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights. They believed the Second Amendment would prevent Goverment tyranny and opression of the people. I must say it is somewhat amusing to see the the poster from England say he can't imagine government tyranny and opression of the people. You might want to crack open a history book now and then Bucko!! The following quote is illuminating in that respect.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order." - Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitlers Tischegesprache Im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-1942. [Translation: Hitler's Table-Talk at the Fuhrer's Headquarters 1941-1942], Dr. Henry Picker, ed. (Athenaum-Verlag, Bonn, 1951)

first up, this site has a 'fishing section'. it has numerous sections not specifically related to cigars, presumably because rob is responding to members' wishes. it does not have a 'killing, murdering, shooting' section. and the day it gets one, i'm off.

i accept that there are legitimate uses for guns (actually, we have been over this so many times, not much point in going through it all agaion except to refer people back to the many many posts) but we don't see too many lunatics walking into schools and casting people to death. and how many people robbed a bank with a fishing line? then again, we don't see too many people driving into classrooms to kill people. but the gun lobby insists on flogging the guns = cars crap. it is nonsense. the gun lobby insists on flogging anything it can to take the focus off the issue. for good reason. and this leads to the fishing...

as for fishing - the vast majority of the far-too-little fishing i do these days is catch and release. one week a year we have an exception where we eat everything we catch. anyone that just catches fish and dumps them to die should be at the very least banned from ever fishing again. but, and this is yet another tool of the gun lobby - it is a different issue. and yes, i know that some hunters eat what they should - good on them. a bucket load more do not. i would suggest that very few recreational fishermen discard what they catch. but, for another day.

you ask what is "moronic"? on the day when yet another group of innocent schoolchildren have been gunned down by a man with a gun, not a car or a fishing rod, someone has the stupidity to post that crap. but hey, let's not question his rights to express himself. bugger the victims. why is it the gun lobby pretends that all gun owners are responsible, law-abding, rational beings who only ever shoot targets or an occasional turkey? what a load of crap. sure, there are plent,y and if your country wants to continue down that road, entirely up to it. won't stop me voicing how braindead it is.

and with the greatest respect, did you read what you actually wrote? i didn't think i'd see anything more bizarre than the original post but "No one seems to mind the collatoral damage of automobile deaths, injuries, and property damage ". seriously? did you mean that?

and try as i might, it is hard to see the way you worded your post as anything other than you equating your government with hitler. you may well believe that. my utter disdain for politicians around the globe has been posted here many times but even i think that is just a bit extreme.

[Nate31]

first up, this site has a 'fishing section'. it has numerous sections not specifically related to cigars, presumably because rob is responding to members' wishes. it does not have a 'killing, murdering, shooting' section. and the day it gets one, i'm off.

i accept that there are legitimate uses for guns (actually, we have been over this so many times, not much point in going through it all agaion except to refer people back to the many many posts) but we don't see too many lunatics walking into schools and casting people to death. and how many people robbed a bank with a fishing line? then again, we don't see too many people driving into classrooms to kill people. but the gun lobby insists on flogging the guns = cars crap. it is nonsense. the gun lobby insists on flogging anything it can to take the focus off the issue. for good reason. and this leads to the fishing...

as for fishing - the vast majority of the far-too-little fishing i do these days is catch and release. one week a year we have an exception where we eat everything we catch. anyone that just catches fish and dumps them to die should be at the very least banned from ever fishing again. but, and this is yet another tool of the gun lobby - it is a different issue. and yes, i know that some hunters eat what they should - good on them. a bucket load more do not. i would suggest that very few recreational fishermen discard what they catch. but, for another day.

you ask what is "moronic"? on the day when yet another group of innocent schoolchildren have been gunned down by a man with a gun, not a car or a fishing rod, someone has the stupidity to post that crap. but hey, let's not question his rights to express himself. bugger the victims. why is it the gun lobby pretends that all gun owners are responsible, law-abding, rational beings who only ever shoot targets or an occasional turkey? what a load of crap. sure, there are plent,y and if your country wants to continue down that road, entirely up to it. won't stop me voicing how braindead it is.

and with the greatest respect, did you read what you actually wrote? i didn't think i'd see anything more bizarre than the original post but "No one seems to mind the collatoral damage of automobile deaths, injuries, and property damage ". seriously? did you mean that?

and try as i might, it is hard to see the way you worded your post as anything other than you equating your government with hitler. you may well believe that. my utter disdain for politicians around the globe has been posted here many times but even i think that is just a bit extreme.

For one its a protected right here and two because we have learned here criminals will do criminal acts despite law. US crimes are more numerous internationally because we have over 300 million people while your country has (according to wiki) has 22 million. So for every one shooting you guys have we will have over 10X as many even if our criminal rates are the same. Im not saying criminal rates are the same but you guys don't also have the violent inner cities we do. As I said the acts of a few don't mean the rights of hundreds of millions of other people need to be reduced. There are also millions of Americans with concealed carry permits and again the criminal activity rate with these people are extremely low. We don't need to tell 300 million Americans your rights are reduced to rubbish because 1 person, 5 people or even 20 people can't handle themselves in society or the system we have failed or isn't updated quickly enough.

With regards to fishing it would be like 1 angler taking a species of fish out of season so we're going to tell every Australian they can no longer fish at all. You're going to be like why can't I fish anymore because one idiot broke the rules? Well its the same here with guns. The vast majority do not commit illegal acts even though we have loose laws by international standards but by far the majority of people are not criminals. So we choose, by our Supreme Court, to say gun rights are a right by the Constitution and they cannot be taken away without due process or other previous acts like being convicted of a crime punishable by over 1 year in jail, addicted to illegal drugs, spousal abuse, declared by a court to be mentally ill, ect. These are all reasonable reasons why a person cannot own a firearm which is what our Supreme Court has said. Outside of that we are afforded the right to own firearms after passing background check.

[Ken Gargett]

gamekeepers is almost always a lovely ripe easy drinking styule. heaps of fruit ajnd usually very good value.

[Ken Gargett]

For one its a protected right here and two because we have learned here criminals will do criminal acts despite law. US crimes are more numerous internationally because we have over 300 million people while your country has (according to wiki) has 22 million. So for every one shooting you guys have we will have over 10X as many even if our criminal rates are the same. Im not saying criminal rates are the same but you guys don't also have the violent inner cities we do. As I said the acts of a few don't mean the rights of hundreds of millions of other people need to be reduced. There are also millions of Americans with concealed carry permits and again the criminal activity rate with these people are extremely low. We don't need to tell 300 million Americans your rights are reduced to rubbish because 1 person, 5 people or even 20 people can't handle themselves in society or the system we have failed or isn't updated quickly enough.

With regards to fishing it would be like 1 angler taking a species of fish out of season so we're going to tell every Australian they can no longer fish at all. You're going to be like why can't I fish anymore because one idiot broke the rules? Well its the same here with guns. The vast majority do not commit illegal acts even though we have loose laws by international standards but by far the majority of people are not criminals. So we choose, by our Supreme Court, to say gun rights are a right by the Constitution and they cannot be taken away without due process or other previous acts like being convicted of a crime punishable by over 1 year in jail, addicted to illegal drugs, spousal abuse, declared by a court to be mentally ill, ect. These are all reasonable reasons why a person cannot own a firearm which is what our Supreme Court has said. Outside of that we are afforded the right to own firearms after passing background check.

it has nothing to do with fishing. nothing.

your country, run it how you want (though, with respect, that might be an attituide you could extend to a few other countries).

you talk of rights but how about the rights of those kids that got slaughtered? or the lot before them? or before them?............

[khomeinist]

For one its a protected right here and two because we have learned here criminals will do criminal acts despite law. US crimes are more numerous internationally because we have over 300 million people while your country has (according to wiki) has 22 million. So for every one shooting you guys have we will have over 10X as many even if our criminal rates are the same. Im not saying criminal rates are the same but you guys don't also have the violent inner cities we do. As I said the acts of a few don't mean the rights of hundreds of millions of other people need to be reduced. There are also millions of Americans with concealed carry permits and again the criminal activity rate with these people are extremely low. We don't need to tell 300 million Americans your rights are reduced to rubbish because 1 person, 5 people or even 20 people can't handle themselves in society or the system we have failed or isn't updated quickly enough.

With regards to fishing it would be like 1 angler taking a species of fish out of season so we're going to tell every Australian they can no longer fish at all. You're going to be like why can't I fish anymore because one idiot broke the rules? Well its the same here with guns. The vast majority do not commit illegal acts even though we have loose laws by international standards but by far the majority of people are not criminals. So we choose, by our Supreme Court, to say gun rights are a right by the Constitution and they cannot be taken away without due process or other previous acts like being convicted of a crime punishable by over 1 year in jail, addicted to illegal drugs, spousal abuse, declared by a court to be mentally ill, ect. These are all reasonable reasons why a person cannot own a firearm which is what our Supreme Court has said. Outside of that we are afforded the right to own firearms after passing background check.

Nothing wrong with hunting and self-defense weapons in my book.

My issue is machine guns and other automatic weapons.... seriously??

I want the right to bear nuclear warheads. Let's give global warming a head start....

[khomeinist]

How any society, which argues the need to carry guns for personal safety, can call itself civilized is beyond my understanding.

Magnus

While I understand your point, it takes significant time in America to understand how ingrained 'the right to bear arms' is here. It is a fundamental part of American individualism, and will remain so.....

[Fuzz]

Times change. What was right back then, may no longer be right now.

[khomeinist]

'right' has nothing to do with it....

[khomeinist]

except that it has everything to do with it.....

Yanks will understand

[Nate31]

it has nothing to do with fishing. nothing.

your country, run it how you want (though, with respect, that might be an attituide you could extend to a few other countries).

you talk of rights but how about the rights of those kids that got slaughtered? or the lot before them? or before them?............

Like I said we can't restrict the rights of 300 million + people because 1, 5 or 20 people chose to commit a crime which was already a criminal act and because the courts didn't update their records or because the police failed to act on numerous citizen complaints.

I mean where does it stop? Even in your own country people can get drunk and if they choose go drive a car. So one person drinks and drives so we have to tell all of Australia they can no longer drink a glass of wine or drive a car? We tried that here with prohibition and the law was repealed with a constitutional amendment. So we ban guns and then only criminals have guns. Not going to work just as alcohol prohibition didn't work. Its not like we are completely lax in our firearms laws. The guns you saw in the video require local police to approve the permit and then the Federal police take months to issue a tax stamp. Then the person cannot loan out the gun and selling it requires the same permit process which takes months along with more local police signatures as well as Federal involvement. The criminal rate with these firearms are less than your general crime rates. What more do you want as far as laws? Our firearms laws only work if the courts update their records and act on complaints. I don't see how you can say all the rest of us can't own a gun because our court system took too long to update their records. Thats responsibility lies on them not us at us citizens. I can't go to my local court house and say a guy in Virginia can't go buy a gun. So some court 1500 miles away failed to update their records with the Federal system so that means I can't buy a firearm?

The same thing that has happened here has happened in other countries with extremely restrictive firearms laws. I hope it never happens there, here or anywhere else but the laws are not going to stop someone. I think Norway proved that. How many people died? You can read the wiki link for that: My linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

What about the rights of the people who have been killed here? We have a justice system for that, and thats the way our system works just as it does in Australia or any other modern country. I can tell you right off the bat people here are afforded a trial with an attorney paid for by the people and they have one of the best legal systems in the world to work with. Even criminals here are afforded rights (just like our right to own guns) they get nowhere else in the world. I am not saying the US is the best country in the world just a bit of friendly chatter to go along with what has been said. Truth be told if I won the US lottery the US would not be where I would be living. We have our + and - here like anywhere else.

[Ken Gargett]

Nothing wrong with hunting and self-defense weapons in my book.

My issue is machine guns and other automatic weapons.... seriously??

I want the right to bear nuclear warheads. Let's give global warming a head start....

be fair. the founding fathers were clearly thinking of everyone's right to take a uzi to school. outrageous to think that anyone wanting to stay alive should be able to impinge on that.

[Ken Gargett]

Like I said we can't restrict the rights of 300 million + people because 1, 5 or 20 people chose to commit a crime which was already a criminal act and because the courts didn't update their records or because the police failed to act on numerous citizen complaints.

I mean where does it stop? Even in your own country people can get drunk and if they choose go drive a car. So one person drinks and drives so we have to tell all of Australia they can no longer drink a glass of wine or drive a car? We tried that here with prohibition and the law was repealed with a constitutional amendment. So we ban guns and then only criminals have guns. Not going to work just as alcohol prohibition didn't work. Its not like we are completely lax in our firearms laws. The guns you saw in the video require local police to approve the permit and then the Federal police take months to issue a tax stamp. Then the person cannot loan out the gun and selling it requires the same permit process which takes months along with more local police signatures as well as Federal involvement. The criminal rate with these firearms are less than your general crime rates. What more do you want as far as laws? Our firearms laws only work if the courts update their records and act on complaints. I don't see how you can say all the rest of us can't own a gun because our court system took too long to update their records. Thats responsibility lies on them not us at us citizens. I can't go to my local court house and say a guy in Virginia can't go buy a gun. So some court 1500 miles away failed to update their records with the Federal system so that means I can't buy a firearm?

The same thing that has happened here has happened in other countries with extremely restrictive firearms laws. I hope it never happens there, here or anywhere else but the laws are not going to stop someone. I think Norway proved that. How many people died? You can read the wiki link for that: My linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

What about the rights of the people who have been killed here? We have a justice system for that, and thats the way our system works just as it does in Australia or any other modern country. I can tell you right off the bat people here are afforded a trial with an attorney paid for by the people and they have one of the best legal systems in the world to work with. Even criminals here are afforded rights (just like our right to own guns) they get nowhere else in the world. I am not saying the US is the best country in the world just a bit of friendly chatter to go along with what has been said. Truth be told if I won the US lottery the US would not be where I would be living. We have our + and - here like anywhere else.

i understand what you are saying. i think it is a load of crap (i really don't mean disrespect with that - i simply have a very different opinion and think yours dangerous but, ain't my country) but i follow.

but now we have guns and alcohol. shy can no one pro guns limit the argument to guns? it is like the kid in school who is guilty of nisbehaving but keeps dobbing mates in, thinking it makes him look better.

but by now, rob has probably had a coronary. so we might be best accepting we are unlikley to chaneg either's opinion. and we haven't even disturbed piggy yet. still looking forward to a long discussion about this and other matters before long.

[Munts]

I agree with Rob... Move on.

Does anyone from either side believe they will suddenly be convinced that their views and outlook is wrong? Unlikely.

What side am i on? does it really matter? Nope.

I will have a cigar with both sides

It reminds me of when my Dad was a taxi driver. He said you should never talk to a customer about politics, religion or sport. Shame really cos they are among the most interesting things in life

[Nate31]

No problem and if you ever end up in Texas you have a invitation to go test some of our guns (and wine).

Have a good day.....;-)

[ptrthgr8]

Interesting.

I need to remember this is primarily an Austrailian forum and most folks are less likely to have the same opinion as most Americans when it comes to private firearms ownership. Insensitive post? Hardly. I'm in the US so I clearly heard about the shootings in Oakland. I didn't associate the two things (the shootings in Oakland and my post at the top of this thread) because - quite simply - they have nothing to do with one another. Period. Anything some of you people want to associate to the contrary is simply and intentionally misguided. I wasn't making jokes about students - the reference to the student in my original post was simply informative. It was a day of shooting organized by a student group from the local university. There were even some law enforcement professionals there - not on duty, but participating in the days events.

I keep forgetting how PC and sensitive many people are around here. It's clear that some members here prefer to demonize otherwise law-abiding people simply because they despise the subject matter. I absolutely refuse to apologize since I did nothing wrong, but I also recognize there's definitely a difference in cultures here. I will endeavor to keep that in mind in the future.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[mk05]

I keep forgetting how PC and sensitive many people are around here.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

Hey Greg, do you ever check out any pet videos on youtube? Welcome to the internet. Haha

I will say that I flew down to Texas last month to shoot some guns and now have a very stern outlook on the matter.

[ramon_cojones]

You have to remember this is an international forum therefore there exists a lot of hypersensitivity surrounding this topic.

[ptrthgr8]

You have to remember this is an international forum therefore there exists a lot of hypersensitivity surrounding this topic.

Indeed. But all internet forums are international. I can't think of any forum where I'm a member that doesn't have a large international representation. I think the prickly reactions on this thread have more to do with the personal biases of the people who've responded in such a manner than it does the fact that it's an international group. Some of the most knowledgeable collectors I know are in Australia and Canada (especially when it comes to Lee-Enfields), Germany (especially when it comes to Mausers), Finland (especially when it comes to Mosin Nagants), Israel (when it comes to Galils and Uzis), etc. Gun collecting is not an exclusively American tradition.

I do realize this isn't specifically a gun collectors forum and the primary focus is Cuban cigars, but the description of this forum in particular says nothing about not discussing firearms-related topics:

Discussion Forum "the water hole"

Talk about whatever you like....the water hole is where we gather.

It seems clear that some of the more opinionated members don't want to gather with other members when it comes to this particular topic. My advice to them? Don't read the damned thread. There. Problem solved. But, of course, nothing's ever that easy, especially when others feel the need to bloviate on and on about their own personal biases. It seems clear there needs to be an addendum to the forum description above. I think something like "Don't talk about guns because at the moment Ken's panties aren't in a bunch and we'd prefer to keep them that way" would be immensely helpful.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[tdlfoto]

agree with Ken here. in spades.

[Rushman]

I'm mobile and can't do a partial quote but the last part of Greg's last post is funny, I don't care who you are....,funny.

There are few things so hyper polarizing than politics, religion and guns.

I'm a centrist on most of these things. I don't much care what you do, guns, religion, woman's right to chose and tell all men in power to bugger off its her body, whatever. If you want to talk religion, I might listen I might not.

Unfortunately, people generally in the middle on topics such as these are a dying breed, because hyper polarization makes better news.

But to bolster Greg's point if I thought meat was murder, I wouldn't have bothered opening brazoseagle's "aporkolyspe now" thread.

[Nino]

US crimes are more numerous internationally because we have over 300 million people while your country has (according to wiki) has 22 million. So for every one shooting you guys have we will have over 10X as many even if our criminal rates are the same.

The United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners

The USA has a prison population of about 751 per 100,000 citizens, that is almost 6 times the median rate for the rest of the world.

The median rate for the rest of the world is 125.

The UK, for example, is 151, Germany 88, Japan 63.

None of this is really relevant in this topic but, nevertheless quite interesting.

From the New York Times :

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Nino

PS : I like shooting, have been a member of a shooting club in Germany and occasionally still shoot flowers for my wife in the village’s fair with air rifles ...

[brazoseagle]

I am practicing the restraint of a Saint by not giving my full 2 cents on this, I imagine most know where I stand, I have some very strong opinions on this matter that are rooted in logic and statistical fact, but no need to drag this out more with my commentary. Simply put, This World can be F'd up sometimes, with a lot of F'd up people, I will protect my family the way I choose and you can protect your family the way you choose, the point is make sure you protect your family in some manner. I would much rather have my firearm and never NEED it, than NEED it and not have one.

I will say this: There is no need for personal character attacks, or condescending put-downs about either viewpoint. It's one thing to be passionate about your stance on an issue, but it is completely different to emasculate another for their view if it happens to not be the one you share. A stimulating exchange back and forth on opposing views is healthy, it's what makes us refined gentlemen, but when it stoops down to personal attacks, it is not what this forum is for. Put away childish things and remember we are all brothers here.

Whatever your roots may be on one side of the issue or the other, hold strong to your stance. Our roots are always there, prevelant in everyday society.

When the storm blows through and devistates the land, the tree may be long gone, but the roots remain!