Discontinued Cigars 2011

[jedipastor]

Not to get all patriotic or whatever, but I wouldn't say the US market is to blame here. Virtually all US Habanos smokers I know are into the traditional vitolas. They tend to be connoisseurs, and not the more casual once-a-week smokers. The big-ring trend for NCs is certainly there, but the trend for NCs in general is to put as much new stuff on the market as possible (Americans are sort of obsessed with anything shiny or "new", lol). Since many lines didn't have huge rings before, a lot of manufacturers are adding those now to grab those particular customers. Many of the same manufacturers are putting out more lanceros as well (which I applaud whole-heatedly!)

I think HSA's lack of concern for it's consumer base is at fault here ... they'll cut costs rather than cater to us, which is foolish. With 35% of Habanos sales coming from Duty Free shops, HSAs marketing to those shops is key. If the only stock Montes, Cohibas, and PDS4s, that's what they'll sell. I'm guessing a large percentage of those buyers aren't hard-core cigar guys like us, but are buying for the novelty or gifts and such.

[jedipastor]

It is worth remembering that U.S. spycraft at one time included attempts not only to make Fidel's beard fall out or kill him with a poison cigar, but also to destroy the Cuban tobacco crop entirely.

So THAT'S what happened in 2000-2001 ..

[PigFish]

I don't think they're directly marketing to the U.S., but rather responding to market trends CREATED in the U.S. and fostered by the boutique and high-end vanity marcas hustling those pornolas. In addition, given some of the defrosting that has taken place, it's possible, as others have noted on other threads, that we might actually see an end to the embargo in the next decade, and especially once Fidel goes on to his "reward."

It is worth remembering that U.S. spycraft at one time included attempts not only to make Fidel's beard fall out or kill him with a poison cigar, but also to destroy the Cuban tobacco crop entirely. I think some of the same attitudes (consider who's creating those boutique marcas)are still at work. By shaping the "consumer demand," treasured CC vitolas are being wiped out in response.

While you and I Bob disagree on many points I have to agree with some of what is said here. I don't have the time to fully hit this topic this morning, I have a lot to do, nor is this a full response to some of what you have written but here is enough to keep the candle going.

I have gotta' toss this in here... I hate tyranny states! I hate communism... but you knew that already! -LOL (read with a little humor!)

My shot was much more than at the communist state of Cuba. Cuba, Cuban cigars and the Cuban national cigar company, Tabacuba, Cubatabac or whatever they call themselves these days is, was the topic. Using the term market forces to describe country that has denied the market force of the largest economy on earth is a bit of an oxymoron... but I digress. If given the time I may take this up later in this thread.

I wrote a little piece, but did not finish it regarding centralized power, and centralized government. For lack of a better term, central planning. This is some of what I wrote, that I don't have the time to complete...

I will go one step further mates. Centralized planning has ruined the cigar world market as I see it, not just the Cuban model. Cunning hard working people have done what they needed to do to survive here, but the model is anything but a free one.

The fact is (IMHO) that the Cuban monopoly was doing okay given the world competition was held in check by that monopoly. No one could compete with the Cuban monopoly as it stood for many decades. This allowed the Cuban cigar executives (The Party) to run haplessly a corporate dream life in a world dominated by and protected by the monopoly. The vast heritage and knowledge that worked before the revolution kept the old model going despite the fact that Fidel made an attempt to crush it soon after the revolution. He soon found that by killing the historic brands as the seeds of capitalism was tandamount to killing his own golden goose. His first move to kill the traditional Cuban brands was a big mistake and he quickly brought them back to life again. His anti-capitalist idelism was qickly tempered with the reality of the world cigar market, which he now owned! The Cuban government should have learned the lesson from when it first ceased operation of all the historical brands as it did once before, but it did not. It is right back to doing the same thing that it did some 50 years ago, and it will have the same result! As communism (central planned government) has ruined Cuba, the hard liners have never been able to stray far from it. They can't. It is promoted from within. A different mindset is not allowed. They choose company leaders the same way they do government leaders, they are one in the same; by fiat.

So what changed? Why are the Cubans not in possession of the same market that they dominated decades ago. More central planning! I don't really think that the non-Cuban cigar world would exist as it does today if it were not for the protectionist US marketplace (the embargo). More central planning at work except this time in the quasi, or faux free market that we call US politics. You see central planning is not restricted to communist governments.

How about federal or national smoking laws and campaigns? If that is not the mark of central planners I have never seen it. Anti-smoking campaigns, are a hoax and just one more means by those who support central planning and weath redistribution to dig into the pockets of private industry. There are many ways to view vices. But the central planner, whose ultimate goal is control and wealth redistribution is more concerned with those aspects than health effects. Launch a campaign of goodwill, that is the first step. That goodwill campaign is a guise to demonize the company or group of the central committee's choice.

I never finished it... probably because I never saw it as on topic.

The cigar world as we see it now, IMHO is totally a result of the folly of central planning. You can exchange the terms central planning and lack of freedom if you like. The cigar world, and the cigar market itself has little or nothing to do with free market choices. One market is a government monopoly, the other created to dodge that monopoly. The squeeze and decline, brought about by more central planners as well.

My opinion is that Cuban cigars are better, but the leadership is not. There is no leadership in Cuba worth exalting. And as a central planners paradise state, that would include the monopoly cigar business it once had! (If this is not totally clear forgive me... I am in a rush today!)

-Piggy

[Colt45]

Colt,

Please suggest some reds for me to try. I usually like big, red cabs. I'd like to start with No. Cal wines since I'm close and they seem to be eaiser to understand. I'd like to start out in the $20/bottle range until I can get good understanding of what I like, what is good to drink now and what is worth laying down for a nap. (I have a feeling that I might reget this part later).

To be honest, I don't drink much Cal cab these days - I drink more Italian and French than anything else. But a couple relatively inexpensive Cals I have bought and enjoyed are Hess Select, and then a step up is the Hess Allomi. I also have bought the Geyser Peak cab many times.

My main suggestion would be to get to know the wine people at your local shops. Even bigger liquor stores often have a dedicated wine person.

I can almost guarantee that they'll be more than happy to engage you in wine conversation. Also, do not be afraid to mention your budget range

- not everybody buys $100 bottles

yes, I agree Colt. But I do think they are doing well enough now to know what the rest the goldmine is still to be had when they are able to access the US market freely.

No doubt that it will be one of their, if not the biggest market - if and when it does open.

I don't think they're directly marketing to the U.S., but rather responding to market trends CREATED in the U.S. and fostered by the boutique and high-end vanity marcas hustling those pornolas.

By shaping the "consumer demand," treasured CC vitolas are being wiped out in response.

I'm not really disagreeing - more making conversation. In that light, it's kind of saying that producers who do have share of the U.S. market

are influencing or shaping markets where they have much less.

While I'm not overly familiar with all the NC producers out there, what I have seen is that quite a few have a number of "traditional" sizes in

their lines - Pete Johnson for example.

So again, to me, if the Cubans are content to copy and not try to lead - it's on them.

[dB69]

I'm trying to think objectively why HSA has made the decisions that I, amongst others, disagree.

I have smoked cigars six years more and more seriously and when I'm remembering which kind of cigars I liked at the beginning of my short "career" the answer is robustos. Whatever cigar which was big and easy to draw was fine and gave the best enjoyment. Thin cigars were annoying because of their tight draw. I have learned a lot and my taste has also evolved and now I don't think like that beginner anymore, actually vice a versa - I hate open draw cigars and jawbreakers.

What HSA needs to keep their business going on?

- New customers, beginners.

The oldest customers are dying (quite natural) and there are hardening smoking restrictions everywhere so more and more older consumers are quitting smoking, nanny-organizations are f**king up the world...etc...

Beginners just don't like what we do. They don't buy thin tight draw cigars, which are the best, but they just don't know it yet. Many of them will never know.

HSA is offering 50+ ring sized cigars and people are happy because there will be nothing else to smoke, they will never know that there could be a better world of cigars.

So, in the end HSA gets the money and everybody is happy - except some old farts. That's just not fair, but why should HSA care about them? There is no loyalty in business - it's a cold world. Would you wake up early in the morning for 1$ if you could sleep while having 100$?

(Yes, I'm still a beginner compared to many others here, but not from the HSA's point of view. I also hope you caught my point out of this bad English writing.)

Please, buy a cabinet of Partagas Shorts every month!

[jedipastor]

I'm trying to think objectively why HSA has made the decisions that I, amongst others, disagree.

I have smoked cigars six years more and more seriously and when I'm remembering which kind of cigars I liked at the beginning of my short "career" the answer is robustos. Whatever cigar which was big and easy to draw was fine and gave the best enjoyment. Thin cigars were annoying because of their tight draw. I have learned a lot and my taste has also evolved and now I don't think like that beginner anymore, actually vice a versa - I hate open draw cigars and jawbreakers.

What HSA needs to keep their business going on?

- New customers, beginners.

The oldest customers are dying (quite natural) and there are hardening smoking restrictions everywhere so more and more older consumers are quitting smoking, nanny-organizations are f**king up the world...etc...

Beginners just don't like what we do. They don't buy thin tight draw cigars, which are the best, but they just don't know it yet. Many of them will never know.

HSA is offering 50+ ring sized cigars and people are happy because there will be nothing else to smoke, they will never know that there could be a better world of cigars.

So, in the end HSA gets the money and everybody is happy - except some old farts. That's just not fair, but why should HSA care about them? There is no loyalty in business - it's a cold world. Would you wake up early in the morning for 1$ if you could sleep while having 100$?

(Yes, I'm still a beginner compared to many others here, but not from the HSA's point of view. I also hope you caught my point out of this bad English writing.)

Please, buy a cabinet of Partagas Shorts every month!

Good points, however, I fail to see how cutting lines saves HSA much money. And as far as "loyalty," I think there is consumer loyalty in the cigar buisness. How many of you buy every RA Regional that comes out, because previous ones have been good? How many will buy a new vitola in their favorite marca? The same is true of NC manufacturers ... if Tatuaje, Illusione, Liga Privada, or Padron come out with something new, you can bet your balls I'm going to try it!

If HSA is taking cues from the US as many here are proposing, than HSA should be ADDING to the number of cigars they offer, as most NC manufacturers are doing. Instead, HSA is cutting more than they add, with a net loss in the number of offerings.

People like variety. Sure, maybe the robustos and fat-rings get them in the door, but if they find they like a marca because of a certain size, people will want to try other sizes.

Furthermore, the trend in NCs right now is towards stronger, full and extra-full bodied cigars. One reason many NC smokers don't care for Habanos is because they are typically medium bodied, give or take a bit. The Bolivar Corona Extra is one of the strongest Habanos made, and I think HSA is retarded to cut it out if they are trying to cater to the US market as people are suggesting.

I think a smart move by HSA would be to make some of these deletions (BCE, Trini Rob T, LGC Tainos) into something "special." People are all over LEs, REs, LCdH releases, etc. Switch these 3 cigars to a LCdH banding or something similar. This way, they could maintain the sales on those cigars, and perhaps even increase them because of the "specialness" factor.

[CBL]

I think marketing wise Jedipastor has hit the nail on the head! The LGC Tainos would be a great addition to the LCDH line (and one that would fit right in) I've said this before, but I'm still expecting to see a reincarnation of the Partagas Serie Du Connaiseur line as a Limited or Regional Release within the next 5 to 10 years and you can bet your ass that those will sell better than the original release has ever done purely due to hype and false expectations that LE are something special and are cigars that have never been made before.

It's a very childish marketing technique to take something away in order to make that person want it even more. And I think the recent run on the Bolivar Coronas Extra is a perfect example that shows it works (I'm guilty of it as well, just placed my order last night )

The sad thing is, I don't think HSA has done this because they foresaw this effect. They just seem to have a policy that everything that doesn't meet a certain quota gets cut. I really wonder if we can push the sales of one certain cigar and balance the scale so it won't get discontinued come 2012.....

[Wicky]

While I'm not overly familiar with all the NC producers out there, what I have seen is that quite a few have a number of "traditional" sizes in

their lines - Pete Johnson for example.

Yes, Pete Johnson is doing his best to simulate cuban cigars. Down to the manufacturing process and date stamping the boxes. And good for him. He's one of the few.

In a pinch a La Riqueza lonsdale will get me by.

Illusione lanceros are also pretty decent.

[dicko]

Just to weigh in on the "Welcome to America" line of discussion. All i will say is that this trend towards wanky branding and 'limited release" etc is well and truly alive elsewhere.

Look at the average new release Aussie wine, they are all called "jumping frog" "mad slippery fish" etc.

pure ****. give me a good product and ill drink it, smoke it etc. save the stupid names, please

[khomeinist]

I am somewhat burnt out on this issue....

HSA is demonstrating the worst form of myopic capitalism. Can't they recognize that their market is highly segmented and that the hardcore base consumer..... the chap who lives and breathes Habano history.... is getting fed up with all this?

Smoke and Mirrors. Great in the short-term. Fully idiotic on a longer time-scale.

As many have stated before.... just reduce production of the historically-popular thin-gauge cigars. Put them out every few years. This will increase demand and make for automatic marketing. All hail the return of the Partagas SDC 1.... the ERDM GdE.... ETC...

f-ing morons indeed

[mazolaman]

Agree with both of the above posts.

As I have said before,Cuban cigars have a cache of their own,due to quality.

They would be far better off not entering into any kind of childish marketing stuff,retaining a certain mystique for their product.

Someone at Habanos has been on a marketing course,it would seem,run by chocolate bar manufacturers.

Agree again with the idea of occasional production of the less popular cigars.

[dB69]

Companies are just and only for making profits to their stockholders, whether they are private persons, governments or other companies.

If you were a stockholder, would you cry for less profits?

- No, I don't think so.

If you were a CEO and you should cut some articles from the line of your company to make it a little more profitable, would you cut the best selling or the worst selling article?

- You would cut the worst selling article, of course.

Is all of the above nice and fun?

- No, I don't think so.

We need a fidel and a che to start up a cigar-revolution to stop the oppression of minor part of cigarpeople!

Any volunteers?

- No, I don't think so. It's not so important issue to get oneself killed or into the jail.

( )

[DrunkenMonkey]

I was just wondering, how many classic cigars will they kill? What's next? Montecristo 1? Hoyo des Dieux? Partagas 898? Cohiba Coronas Especiale? Where does it end?

[aes8]

I was just wondering, how many classic cigars will they kill? What's next? Montecristo 1? Hoyo des Dieux? Partagas 898? Cohiba Coronas Especiale? Where does it end?

Good question. Here is what I think H SA will be cutting in the next few years:

RASS 50 ct cab

JL 2 50 ct cab

Hoyo du Gormet du Marie Palmas Extra

HU Corona Major and Minor and Regalias

Monte Open Line

Partagas PCE

I feel that nothing in the QdO, Dip, Cuaba, Fonseca, RG, PL line is safe.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. Pretty soon we will be down to only dress boxes, which I personally hate for any type of aging.

[kgoings]

Rob, with all the small formats getting the axe. In your opinion are cigars like the Cohiba Lancero in future danger? Also with the dropping the 50 cabs of Mag 46/50 is that a sign that the 46/50 will go away all together soon? Seems like they drop the 50 cabs then a few years later drop the cigar all together

[Styler]

Any update on the status of the Robusto T? It would surely be madness to delete it.

[nonameno]

Good question. Here is what I think H SA will be cutting in the next few years:

RASS 50 ct cab

JL 2 50 ct cab

Hoyo du Gormet du Marie Palmas Extra

HU Corona Major and Minor and Regalias

Monte Open Line

Partagas PCE

I feel that nothing in the QdO, Dip, Cuaba, Fonseca, RG, PL line is safe.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. Pretty soon we will be down to only dress boxes, which I personally hate for any type of aging.

Hello Fellow FOHers',

I agree with this reasoning on the next 'victims'. Of the current round of deletions, the only ones I can see anything to is the 50 cabs of H.Upmann 46/50. The 25 count already come in cabs. So, unless someone can tell why a 50 count is better than a 25 count cab?

Thank you,

Curtiss

[mm12]

Good question. Here is what I think H SA will be cutting in the next few years:

RASS 50 ct cab

JL 2 50 ct cab

Hoyo du Gormet du Marie Palmas Extra

HU Corona Major and Minor and Regalias

Monte Open Line

Partagas PCE

I feel that nothing in the QdO, Dip, Cuaba, Fonseca, RG, PL line is safe.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. Pretty soon we will be down to only dress boxes, which I personally hate for any type of aging.

You're probably right on those, but I'd like to add:

Monte Especial 1 and 2

Monte 1

Monte 3

RASCC

H.Upmann Connie 1

H. Upmann no. 2

Partagas 898

Romeo and Julieta Cazadores

Bolivar Corona Junior

Those HSA boys seem to have a real knack for getting my blood boiling come deletion time. I have little doubt a good part of this list will be gone in 3 or 4 years. It's almost a certainty. They're starting to run out of good cigars to delete.

[First Lady]

Okay it was confirmed to me that the Trinidad Robusto T is being discontinued... just to let you know all LG Tanios and Bolivar Corona Extra are gone , we may get more in 6- 8 months but who know... I am not happy about it always seems as soon as the list appears the cigars on the list dry up fast... someone hording maybe

[Wil]

Good question. Here is what I think H SA will be cutting in the next few years:

RASS 50 ct cab

JL 2 50 ct cab

Hoyo du Gormet du Marie Palmas Extra

HU Corona Major and Minor and Regalias

Monte Open Line

Partagas PCE

I feel that nothing in the QdO, Dip, Cuaba, Fonseca, RG, PL line is safe.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. Pretty soon we will be down to only dress boxes, which I personally hate for any type of aging.

I was under the impression that the Monte Open line sells fairly well, regardless of what we think of it.

You're probably right on those, but I'd like to add:

Monte Especial 1 and 2

Monte 1

Monte 3

RASCC

H.Upmann Connie 1

H. Upmann no. 2

Partagas 898

Romeo and Julieta Cazadores

Bolivar Corona Junior

Those HSA boys seem to have a real knack for getting my blood boiling come deletion time. I have little doubt a good part of this list will be gone in 3 or 4 years. It's almost a certainty. They're starting to run out of good cigars to delete.

The Partagas 898 is arguably the best of that vitola, which is pretty limited in range, so I imagine it is in high demand.

[DrunkenMonkey]

The Partagas 898 is arguably the best of that vitola, which is pretty limited in range, so I imagine it is in high demand.

Many said the same thing about the Partagas SdC lines not so long ago. I remember hearing it said of the Punch SS#1 too. And the Bolivar CE. And that's just over the last couple of years.

[Wil]

Surely it's all about sales volumes.

[Matt Day]

Good question. Here is what I think H SA will be cutting in the next few years:

RASS 50 ct cab

JL 2 50 ct cab

Hoyo du Gormet du Marie Palmas Extra

HU Corona Major and Minor and Regalias

Monte Open Line

Partagas PCE

I feel that nothing in the QdO, Dip, Cuaba, Fonseca, RG, PL line is safe.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. Pretty soon we will be down to only dress boxes, which I personally hate for any type of aging.

I don’t think the upmann major and minor are in danger over here there in literally every wine merchant in the country in tubos form

I also think Ramon allones gets its fair share of re and an le this year so I would believe the ra’s are safe at present

As for the Monte’s the Monte four is highly popular why would they weaken the others in that number line?

[mazolaman]

Fewer Skinnies,

Fewer Cheapos,

Fewer traditional but quircky,

More 46 plus ring gauge dull cigars......

Pretty obvious strategy.

[dicko]

I was under the impression that the Monte Open line sells fairly well, regardless of what we think of it.

The Partagas 898 is arguably the best of that vitola, which is pretty limited in range, so I imagine it is in high demand.

i just said a prayer to the cigar gods (serious)