So what are the lessons Learned from the Blind Tasting?

[El Presidente]

The blind tasting of cigar number three continues with final results coming in (finishes Sunday/Monday) folks

With near sixty blind tasters from around the world and three cigars, I suspect it was one of the largest blind tastings undertaken. Once again, thank you for participation.

A little background on the cigars. From each tasting the boxes for each vitola were from the same boxcode and were representative of the average cigar being produced in that Marque and vitola. I wanted to ensure we were all tasting general stock.

There are plenty of assumptions that can be made.

* There is variance in the flavour of cigars within a box and box to box.

* Palates are subjective. Many times in the reviews we have seen tasters discuss similar flavours but some tasters enjoy the flavours while others do not.

* All palates are not equal and that is simply a mix of physiology, experience, personal circumstances (environmental, physica (colds etal)).

Then there is the question of the age of cigars and to what effect it played in the results? For the next series of blind tastings I will select cigars with a minimum age of 5 years and we will see if age actually plays a significant role in selections.

Cigar 3 will be revealed Monday. Good luck to all.

let us know your thoughts on the tasting. Were the results as expected?

[CBL]

I've lost interest in Cuban cigar in general after that Robusto.... It's highly disappointing to see the amount of inconstancy within the same box. It wouldn't matter if all cigar were at least enjoyable, but if they taste like **** AND perform as such, than we're just wasting money on dried and rolled up foliage.

[Lotusguy]

I learned that next time I need to get off my ass and actually participate!

[Colt45]

From an observer's perspective (I was doubtful of my ability to meet the timeline for the first cigar at least, so did not want to make a commitment I couldn't keep),

what jumps out at me is the apparent disparity between some of the cigars. Tastes and palates are different, but I think it reasonable to believe we can all perceive

a truly poor cigar.

As for being able to determine marque, brand, etc in a blind tasting, it is no doubt a difficult thing to do - perhaps even with proper examples - but an interesting

undertaking regardless.

Without trying to cast aspersions, I think that even with the gains made over parts of the last decade, the industry in Cuba is still experiencing what perhaps could be

considered growing pains, but in my mind, more aptly an identity crisis.

[OZCUBAN]

I learned that next time I need to get off my ass and actually participate!

The same goes for me as well

I thought seen as I do not have a refined palate ,i stupidly let that put me off ,but not next time I failed to see that just to participate is half the fun good concept Rob ,i guess it give a real world indication of where every day cigars are really at

Cheers OZ

[Rehman]

That each and every cigar is as unique as the individual smoking it and irrepeatable as the moment in which it is smoked. That no one cigar can ever speak even for those next to it in the box, let alone all the others bearing its band.

...I think it reasonable to believe we can all perceive a truly poor cigar.

We can? But I have all these adored non-Cubans! I have all these Trinidads and other Habanos dismissed by many here. I have many cigars that rank lowly in consensus. Conversely, there are many cigars apparently held in high esteem that I don't like at all. No, I cannot perceive a truly poor cigar - only ones I don't like.

[habanohal]

That ALOT of Cuban cigars taste very much the sme or similar

[Colt45]

No, I cannot perceive a truly poor cigar - only ones I don't like.

When I smoke a cigar that tastes bitter, acrid, etc, I may not like it - but I would also consider it a poor cigar.

But I suppose that there may be those who might enjoy those flavors and sensations

[Rehman]

When I smoke a cigar that tastes bitter, acrid, etc, I may not like it - but I would also consider it a poor cigar.

But I suppose that there may be those who might enjoy those flavors and sensations

Even here there are too many variables, Colt, including storage conditions, etc etc. Meaning, even a bad-tasting cigar may be a single duff instance of the marca.

[Colt45]

Even here there are too many variables, Colt, including storage conditions, etc etc. Meaning, even a bad-tasting cigar may be a single duff instance of the marca.

Yes, but my point is our ability to taste versus marque inconsistency. We may not all be super tasters or be able to discern or put into words some of the more

subtle flavors, but again, I think most of us are able to determine that a cigar is completely off - regardless of whether it's a case of improper storage conditions

or improperly fermented / cured tobacco, etc.

I'm one of the members who doesn't much care for Trinidad on the whole, but I don't consider them bad cigars - just not my cup of tea. Just as a number of

members have mentioned that Upmann in general don't float their boats while I generally find them enjoyable. For me that's all subjective - like / don't like.

But this all once again brings forth some of the things we've discussed as of late such as brand identities / profiles, how can we be certain of how a box of cigars

will mature with age when we've no idea whether or not each cigar in a box is exactly the same to begin with, and so on.

[Nocoins]

That each and every cigar is as unique as the individual smoking it and irrepeatable as the moment in which it is smoked. That no one cigar can ever speak even for those next to it in the box, let alone all the others bearing its band.

From a non-participant's perspective, I think it is unacceptable that a box of cigars bearing a certain brand should turn out to be something like "assorted flavors." I understand that we're dealing with pieces of organic matter rolled into individual cigars, and that boxing cigars is not the same as bottling wine. But the "all taste alike" problem didn't seem to exist until a few years ago.

I won't make excuses or apologies for a problem that HSA seems to have created. Brands formerly were fairly easy to identify. Now only 6 of 60 guess the right PC, and it was a Cohiba to boot. I don't think the problem is that the cigars in each box are unique or special. The problem is the blending. I wish there were much less tolerance for this.

[El Presidente]

From a non-participant's perspective, I think it is unacceptable that a box of cigars bearing a certain brand should turn out to be something like "assorted flavors."

But what if the variance is equally with the tasters physical and environmentally influenced abilities to taste?

There are reviews where the same flavour characteristics are being discussed, some love them some loathe them.

Would it be fair to say there was consistency in say 30% of reviews. Does that mean that 70% of cigars in the box are blended poorly or 30% of tasters had a similar palate?

Is there a hidden consistency in the inconsistency revealed?

Just asking

[Ghabanos]

But what if the variance is equally with the tasters physical and environmentally influenced abilities to taste?

There are reviews where the same flavour characteristics are being discussed, some love them some loathe them.

Would it be fair to say there was consistency in say 30% of reviews. Does that mean that 70% of cigars in the box are blended poorly or 30% of tasters had a similar palate?

Is there a hidden consistency in the inconsistency revealed?

Just asking

That is a fantastic question. I would go further and say that it isn't conclusive to say that there are assorted flavors or inconsistencies when the Tasters aren't the controlled variable...

Not being able to determine the correct marca is more a factor of not participating in enough blind taste tests... (my opinion and just a hunch only)

Rob - this was a fantastic idea. Lots of discussion on the back of this and lots of learning.

I will be joining the next time for sure...

[El Presidente]

That is a fantastic question. I would go further and say that it isn't conclusive to say that there are assorted flavors or inconsistencies when the Tasters aren't the controlled variable...

Not being able to determine the correct marca is more a factor of not participating in enough blind taste tests... (my opinion and just a hunch only)

Rob - this was a fantastic idea. Lots of discussion on the back of this and lots of learning.

I will be joining the next time for sure...

This is where when it comes to cigar reviews (video or text) it is important to follow reviews from people with whom you share similar experiences.

If XYZ reviewer goes ballistic on a certain cigar (positive or negative), there is little to say you will follow the same experience unless you have somehow over time matched (or not) his/her past experiences.

Now I know that there will be people who will raise the point of changes in cigar experiences within their same box and put that down to HSA incompetence (actually that would be Tabacuba).

However let me throw the following into the equation. Leaves are disseminated for a blend. Lets say they are 75% accurate cigar to cigar that day.

What are the variables in the end cigar user?

*storage

*Personal well being (health)

*Mental well being

Where do you draw the blame? Physiological, environmental, manufacture?

I don't have the answer outside that that a poorly rolled cigar (construction) is unnacceptable.

Always interesting

[Azksig]

No one has really talked about an individuals perception as a contributing factor to rating/tasting a cigar. That's the beauty behind a blind tasting. I'm curious to how the reviews would have turned out for cigar #1 if we knew it was a Cohiba. I'm guessing it would have received a higher overall rating in satisfaction. How many of us have pretended a cigar was in fact better than it really was because it was a Cohiba or LE. I know I have. It seems that sometimes we need to justify the cost to ourselves by inflating our experience to match our preconceptions of particular cigars or brands.

Just a thought.

[LeafLover]

I wasn't a participant, but the blind tasting results has done nothing more than raise more questions for me:

1) If cuban leaf was given to Non-Cuban cigar factories, will they make a better cuban cigar?

2) So many give defense to the fact that tobacco is an organic product and that each bale, each field, each region is different, hence you can see differences within each box and between boxes. But, why do I not experience this in boxes of non-cubans I have had in the past?

3) From the results, I've noticed that most of the marcas have been suspected as the mystery cigar. Really? Are the marcas that similar in that vitola (PC/Robusto) across the board?

4) Does smoking experience/years of smoking mean that you really know the flavors of cuban cigars?

This exercise seems to be the most honest in demystifying cuban cigars. Personally, I love the flavors that the cuban leaf has to offer. But, cuban cigars certainly it comes with it's demons: inconsistency, frequent poor construction. So, it is the nature of the beast.

[Ghabanos]

No one has really talked about an individuals perception as a contributing factor to rating/tasting a cigar. That's the beauty behind a blind tasting. I'm curious to how the reviews would have turned out for cigar #1 if we knew it was a Cohiba. I'm guessing it would have received a higher overall rating in satisfaction. How many of us have pretended a cigar was in fact better than it really was because it was a Cohiba or LE. I know I have. It seems that sometimes we need to justify the cost to ourselves by inflating our experience to match our preconceptions of particular cigars or brands.

Just a thought.

Agreed. Sometimes it is just involuntary and psychological and end up making comments based on preconceptions on what it should be based in the band it bears...

[dicko]

I think there was plenty of similarities in people's reviews as far as specific flavours picked etc. There was definite trends in the cigars guessed by people as well.

Take out the inconsitency in CONSTRUCTION, storage etc and I think there is a good argument that tastings across a broad number of smokers can be pretty damn consistent.

I really enjoyed the exercise and will participate again.

As an aside I have written off pyramids in the past but cigar 3 was my favourite by far so I guess the tasting was good at challenging some stereotypes as well.

[Rogers72]

1.) We touched on it in other threads but this experiment has further debunked the myth of the "Sick Period" for me. I think that ageing is more a constant progression until a point of constant diminishing return and does not revert into a sick period. It would be easy for me to have picked up the imbecile of the Hoyo Epi #2 that I had and say that the box was going through a sick period. After all, I had one a month ago from the same box and it was good. I had one six months later and it was good (based on the reviews of others). In actuality, mine was just a crap cigar. It may have gotten better with age but it was not ever good before and others in the box currently are so it's not a Sick Period. Many may argue but cigars are not consistent enough to prove the existence of it.

2.) I had alot of fun with this. My PC was good, My Robusto was easily the worst cigar that I have ever smoked, and my Pirimide was phenomenal. It was just kinda neat to sit down with a cigar and not know what to expect.

[Colt45]

Take out the inconsitency in CONSTRUCTION, storage etc .....

That might be a little tough to do as it always seems to be the elephant in the room when it comes to Cuban cigars. LeafLover makes a few good points,

and if I may....

The one NC cigar I intentionally buy, keep on hand, and smoke is the AVO Domaine No.30 - a cigar, which given it's flavor characteristics, may not please

everyone - but I enjoy it. No matter where or when I've bought them, they've always been consistent in appearance, construction, and flavor - I've never

found myself pre-light hoping that it would draw properly, taste the same as previous examples, etc.

So, it can be done.

[khomeinist]

I firmly believe that the majority of variation is due to the sampler (major emphasis on that sampler's conscious state!). I agree that Cuban construction is an issue, but when dealing with a subtle, aromatic product, sampling events cannot be controlled perfectly.

The next blind test should involve 3 'identical' cigars to be sampled on different days. That would alleviate some of the 'time of sampling' bias.

2 cents. Yes I will participate next time

[Van55]

I answered this question, in part, on my review of the mystery piramide:

I would NOT have paid $40.00 plus shipping for this trio of cigars had I known what I was going to get out of smoking them. Still, I wouldn't have missed the experience, which was well worth the price of admission. If the point to be made was how inconsistent Cuban cigars can be within the same box code, it has been made in spades. If another point was that 2010 dated cigars need time, that point has also been made. All three of these cigars were, in my opinion, too young to be enjoyed to the fullest.

I read most of the reviews above this one after smoking the piramide and making my own toasting notes. I kept wondering if some of the guys had smoked the same cigar that I did. Canuck called the cigar a "superstar" noting flavors of unsweetened chocolate and "menthol" I got those same flavors at different points, but considered the cigar a dud rather than a superstar.

I certainly acknowledge that taste is individual and subjective. I also acknowledge that each of us smoked the mystery cigars under different circumstances -- different beverages, environments, times of day, moods, etc. But even acknowledging these variables, to me, the judgments were too far apart not to be attributable, at least in significant part, to inconsistencies in the cigars themselves. And some of the attributes of the cigars are not fully subjective. For example, splits in the wrapper are apparent. So is the volume of smoke, though perhaps less so. So is uneven burn. And the reviewers of the mystery cigars almost uniformly commented on these things.

A very interesting experiment, Rob.

[cgarner]

It proved I don't know **** about cuban cigars. I have yet to smoke the 3rd. It's my 1st wedding anniversary this weekend and my wife and I are going away for a 4 day weekend. I plan to smoke it this weekend but doubt I will get back in time to post my review and pick, as I will not be taking my computer and the phone will remain off most of the time.

[traded]

Im not surprised AT ALL by the results of the test so far.

I have long thought that cuban cigars have a handful of flavor "types", a couple of levels of "texture" (creamy, thin) and a few levels of overall quality. With all due respect (truly) I have never understood one of Robs criteria for judging a LE or RE...that the cigar taste true to the marka. When I hear that "this cigar has the typical cohiba/monte/boli/etc/etc flavors", I always feel a huge disconnect between my experience and what the reviewer is saying.

I do believe in things like woody vs. leathery vs. fruity vs. floral vs. nutty....but thats kinda it.

With such limited range in climates/microclimates in Cuba, I dont understand why we can expect every marca to taste a particular way let alone every vitola. The Non Cuban peeps have such a vastly larger range of growing regions/methods/seeds to choose from. They have a lot more variance between cigars (crappy all the way to decent).

I might be ruffling your feathers but I want you to know that I dont think that this in any way diminishes the awesomeness of cuban cigar flavors.

d

[jmasterj]

I really enjoy the blind tastings having participated in a couple here. I like the challenge I'm tasking myself to. I really concentrate on the flavor and odor profiles of each cigar. I felt the results were as expected. I agree with what many of you are saying here.

Mainly, I feel that perception has a lot to do with how a cigar is judged. Especially given that many cigars express very similar flavor ranges (cedar vs. wood vs. pencil shavings) and that one person can perceive one flavor and someone else can perceive a slightly different flavor within that range, each while smoking the exact same cigar. I would love to have access to a cigar marca/vitola flavor profile list, a comprehensive list that describes the flavor, smell, body and strength of each cigar widely available. This would help people better cigar tasting skills.

Take this competition for instance, if given a cigar and a written description of what you're supposed to taste, feel and smell in that cigar without giving the name of it. I think most smokers would experience exactly what is expected. i.e. for the last cigar in the blind tasting, a HdM Epi 2 has a distinct lavender/perfume/Thai tea flavor and if everyone had knowledge of this flavor profile prior to smoking this cigar, then I feel more people would perceive these flavors easier and would have gotten it right.

The only way that you develop that knowledge of cigar profiles is to smoke endless amounts of cigars over and over and over again just like the owner and operator of this forum. Here's an idea for you Rob. Have your experience pay off for you in another way. Develop a Cuban cigar flavor profile publication and distribute it. Something that deep dives into each marca and vitola. The expected flavor profiles and tasting notes. I bet you can't find any resource like this anywhere out there.

Lastly, I think that the smoker’s cigar smoking style comes into effect here too. If someone hasn’t experience enough smoking time, then they may not realize that if you’re pulling really hard on the cigar for most of the length of the cigar, you will develop those bitter, rancid notes faster. I’ve smoked with some people that have smoked cigars for years and they still pull the old ‘iron lungs, vacuum lips’ out. They end up throwing half of the cigar away because it turned on them too soon. So just as important as perception is to this competition, is the method in which you smoke.

I do like some of the suggestions here. Maybe throw in this into the idea list: Have X amount of cigars from the same vitola and trying to hone in on each marca’s essence.