PIRATES!

[Rogers72]

I think that we should be able to stay apolitical with regards to a discussion on Somali Pirates here. I would think that the public opinion of this forum and the public opinion of 99.9% of the Free World would be in favor of actually DOING SOMETHING about this little problem but apparently that is not enough. The Somali problem has faced at least three US Presidents and countless other world leaders with no resolution. It seems to me like an easy fix with little or no political ramifications.

Who are the Somali's allies? Noone of any consequence that I am aware of.

Are these ramshackle vessels in open water with nothing but small arms not easy targets? Yes, they are.

Are these pirate land bases not easy targets for cruise missles and drone attacks? Yes, they are. No need to put any innocent lives at risk.

These bastards have wasted enough of my tax dollars from the navy vessels that play chase with them. These bastards have cost the world economy untold billions in dollars in security, ransoms, detours, etc.

Who can come up with a good reason NOT to put a stop to this?

"Yes, I am a pirate, two hundred years too late. The cannons don’t thunder, there’s nothin’ to plunder. I’m an over-forty victim of fate. Arriving too late, arriving too late."

Jimmy Buffett

Jimmy,

Guess what, you're full of crap. Go to Somalia. There is VERY little difference in these pirates and the ones you romanticize from 200 years ago.

[KB24]

I've been following this story very closely along with all of the other situations that have involved pirates over the last few years. I find it very fascinating but now the fascination has turned into anger as innocent individuals have been executed.

I don't understand the process of capturing pirates, taking their pirate gear and then letting them go. They just return to shore, restock and head back out. My opinion is that any Navy that comes across a pirate skiff or mother ship shoot shoot to kill. We don't negotiate with terrorists so why play games with these people. If they have hostages, Snipers should get to the scene and take aim and not have to wait for the go-ahead.

I think that all countries effected/interested in solving the problem need to organize a joint operation and something needs to be done on land. This is the only way these pirates are gonna be put out of business. The overlying issue is the fact that Somalia has no government and no one to hold these dudes accountable for their actions.

-Patrick

[Rogers72]

i'm not sold on putting soldiers at risk by putting them on the ground in Somalia. The last time we did this, it was a disaster. Albeit, it was grossly mishandled from the start but that place is a disaster waiting to happen. I think that if you cut off their seafaring revenue, it will sort itself out. I don't think the US needs to be anywhere near the interior of the Horn of Africa right now with everything else that is going on but stop their crap in the international trade routes.

[Colt45]

I think that we should be able to stay apolitical with regards to a discussion on Somali Pirates here.

Don't bet your life on it - I'm sure some felt the same about the "Che's Picture" thread.

[Omskakas]

I agree. We should define them as "outlaws" and use means strong enough to get the job done. After all, they're on international waters, attack soft targets and capture and kill civilians.

Only Russians have been brave enough to do something about it:

http://www.news.com.au/world/captured-soma...i-1225865292229

Oh, South Koreans did some good job:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...2044062,00.html

I say, blast them!

http://www.eunavfor.eu/2011/01/finnish-nav...ation-atalanta/

[KB24]

I agree. We should define them as "outlaws" and use means strong enough to get the job done. After all, they're on international waters, attack soft targets and capture and kill civilians.

Only Russians have been brave enough to do something about it:

http://www.news.com.au/world/captured-soma...i-1225865292229

Oh, South Koreans did some good job:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...2044062,00.html

I say, blast them!

http://www.eunavfor.eu/2011/01/finnish-nav...ation-atalanta/

Might you be forgetting this little incident?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30178013/ns/world_news-africa/

[sandholm]

well, the new deaths are really tragic, but lets stop shouting for vendetta and look at the cause.

These people are extremely poor, prior to piracy they were fishers but due to international over fishing they are basically starving. I am not saying that the criminals who shoot the families should not be punished, but if you want to solve the problem you have to solve the poverty and hunger that drives these people to become pirates.

You can shoot as many as you want, deprive them of the rights and just kill them (what the hell its not like we are pro democracy and human rights, right), but there will always be someone replacing the dead pirat, there will always be sons and dotters who loved there father who swear to take revenge.

Havent we learned this from history?

You can shoot as many pirats and terrorist as you want, but that will only make it easier for the leaders to recruit more people, and anchor there hate to the western world. Instead to solve this situation you have to change there living situations so they dont have to go and high jack boats or plans, nor strap bombs to there bodies.

just my two cents

-----

thought i just should add some references, but i just read wikipedia and they write

A United Nations report and several news sources have suggested that piracy off the coast of Somalia is caused in part by illegal fishing and the dumping of toxic waste in Somali waters by foreign vessels that have, according to Somali fishermen, severely constrained the ability of locals to earn a living and forced many to turn to piracy instead.[4][5] Other articles allege that 70 percent of the local coastal communities "strongly support the piracy as a form of national defense of the country's territorial waters", and that the pirates believe they are protecting their fishing grounds and exacting justice and compensation for the marine resources stolen.

have a look if you want http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia

[PigFish]

I think it sends the message that despite civil discourse and good manners there are people in the world whose situation or desires encourage them to be lawless. This is simply a small example of lawlessness that exists around the world and in every country in the world. Frankly I am more worried about other things, such as certain insane characters getting the A-bomb!

I also think that there is a real problem with a legal system that prevents the arming of sea vessels in order that they might defend themselves. Perhaps a private company can be paid to enforce the law in these areas, they are international waters and there may be enough interest by shipping companies to put together a small fast reacting private navy to be used for the defense of shipping. Again however, some group of lawyers will likely get together and put the son or daughter of a dead pirate on TV and sue the company for excessive use of force! I don't know much about maritime law but if instantaneous death to pirates is the law without a course of civil litigation as a result... then the problem will come to an end albeit a bloody one for the pirates.

As usual with me I tend to believe that one must be prepared to defend ones' self or risk the abuses of other parties. As soon as the soft headed amongst us begin to realize that the world is not a safe place in all areas at all times, maybe lawlessness can be treated as it should be treated. Sorry for being no help! -Piggy

[El Presidente]

It is a problem for the UN to handle

.....I crack myself up some days

Let one/two country take over the issue (seek and destroy) on behalf of the UN. Not many in the area could handle it except the Saudi's and Iran. Nice Joint Venture and bring them both some political kudos which they need.

Everyone else stay out.

[Rogers72]

well, the new deaths are really tragic, but lets stop shouting for vendetta and look at the cause.

These people are extremely poor, prior to piracy they were fishers but due to international over fishing they are basically starving. I am not saying that the criminals who shoot the families should not be punished, but if you want to solve the problem you have to solve the poverty and hunger that drives these people to become pirates.

You can shoot as many as you want, deprive them of the rights and just kill them (what the hell its not like we are pro democracy and human rights, right), but there will always be someone replacing the dead pirat, there will always be sons and dotters who loved there father who swear to take revenge.

Havent we learned this from history?

You can shoot as many pirats and terrorist as you want, but that will only make it easier for the leaders to recruit more people, and anchor there hate to the western world. Instead to solve this situation you have to change there living situations so they dont have to go and high jack boats or plans, nor strap bombs to there bodies.

just my two cents

I think that this is a great idea. Now, let's list three things that could be done to improve the living conditions in perhaps the closest place to hell that is on this earth.

I can't think of any. It's Somalia. No resources. No food. No water. Run by tribes of Warlords who don't want any "help" from outside.

I'm all for their human rights and wish that Somalia could be transformed into this fertile land of opportunity but it's not going to happen. People have survived in this region somehow since the dawn of civilization. Leave them alone and let them do it...away from internationl trade zones...

[sandholm]

I agree. We should define them as "outlaws" and use means strong enough to get the job done. After all, they're on international waters, attack soft targets and capture and kill civilians.

International water do NOT mean that there is now law there. If there is a crime on a boat over international water its looked at as if the crime were committed were the boat is registered. Now, certain crimes goes under what is called Universal jurisdiction, piracy for example but also murder.

if they dont give up, shoot to rescue the victims, otherwise they should be prosecuted, like this case:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517231,00.html

(fox news were the first one, this article is ok, not that much propaganda, but there is plenty of information out there about this case, just use google)

cheers

[El Presidente]

These people are extremely poor, prior to piracy they were fishers but due to international over fishing they are basically starving. I am not saying that the criminals who shoot the families should not be punished, but if you want to solve the problem you have to solve the poverty and hunger that drives these people to become pirates.

My understanding is that the vast majority are ex and current Somali Military. They use the fishing villages as a front. Well armed and well organized.

I am all for helping countries fight poverty and hunger once they stop killing each other. Ethiopia and Somalia went at it for 10 years. In the meantime how many global "famine fundraisings" have their been. How many NGO's doing great work on the ground. No shortage of dollars however for arms.

They have to sort out their own problems or at least present a case that they have a will to do so. Then poverty can be tackled.

[sandholm]

My understanding is that the vast majority are ex and current Somali Military. They use the fishing villages as a front. Well armed and well organized.

I am all for helping countries fight poverty and hunger once they stop killing each other. Ethiopia and Somalia went at it for 10 years. In the meantime how many global "famine fundraisings" have their been. How many NGO's doing great work on the ground. No shortage of dollars however for arms.

They have to sort out their own problems or at least present a case that they have a will to do so. Then poverty can be tackled.

I have heard the same, running the operations are ex military, but most of the pirats are former fishers. For the arms, Somalia has been in conflicts for a long time, and there are huge arms depose. Just look in Afghanistan were you both have a lots of arms, the first one were supplied by the US, then it was supplied by the soviet union. In these regions guns dont cost that much...

As a firemen how you fight a fire, remove the oxygen and it will die out, but as long as you dont cool it down it will flair up again as soon it has oxygen.

[PigFish]

I don't believe the bleeding heart approach works! A dead pirate is a pirate that pirates no more!!! -Piggy

[Rogers72]

thats true, we cant improve peoples living situations, we dont have the cash, now how much did the iraq war cost so far?

please...

(hint)

I'm not saying that we don't have the money to improve their living conditions. I'm saying that all of the money in the world would only fix their living conditions very temporarily. You can't plant crops. They have no natural resources to create any economy. They have no government to control the flow of aid. We (the UN) have tried to go in with a small "peacekeeping" force to establsih some order and provide some aid and, hopefully, help establish a government. We (the UN) learned quickly that we were not welcome. It is literally hell on earth. Even their neighbors who have fairly stable governments and a FEW natural resources have horrible living conditions and still rely on large amounts of outside aid for what little they do have.

[Omskakas]

... thanks Rob. I am getting tired of reading about how this is the fault of my countrymen, as usual! -Piggy

Don't you know that all the poverty, hunger, disease and generally bad things in life in the third world are the fault of white, heterosexual, meat eating and cigar smoking white men?

[Omskakas]

Might you be forgetting this little incident?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30178013/ns/world_news-africa/

Oh, I might. It wasn't so recent.

[TMS36]

I have the deepest sympathy for people who were killed this week, but here's a radical idea, don't go pleasure boating around the horn of Africa, that is unless you have 50mm guns on your deck

[micahzeff]

The attempt to justify the actions of these pirates as the result of overfishing is ludicrous. These criminals are demanding ransoms of millions of dollars. If these "fishermen" were making millions of dollars fishing in these waters before these areas were depleted, then I am in the wrong goddamn industry.

[Dbone]

The South Park kids show us how to take over a boat, old school style:

Part 1

Part 2

At last, the kids are saved!!

The kids are saved by special forces

[CanuckSARTech]

It is a problem for the UN to handle

.....I crack myself up some days

Let one/two country take over the issue (seek and destroy) on behalf of the UN. Not many in the area could handle it except the Saudi's and Iran. Nice Joint Venture and bring them both some political kudos which they need.

Everyone else stay out.

Saudi's maybe, but I really don't think that anyone needs to be handing Iran anymore political capital, especially with their habit of pushing the envelope constantly (them sailing 2 warships through the Suez Canal as we speak is an example of that).

Canada can do it. We've got the ships, and we've got some of the greatest snipers in the world.

That's my thoughts anyways - no ground incursions. Just tactical sniper shooting, and strategic missle/rocket launches at mother ships and the like. Blow 'em to Kingdom Come - they've had way too many chances to correct things, and now it's costing lives as well as ridiculous amounts of money.

[CanuckSARTech]

I have the deepest sympathy for people who were killed this week, but here's a radical idea, don't go pleasure boating around the horn of Africa, that is unless you have 50mm guns on your deck

Absolutely, I had this thought too. Not blaming them, but it was a reckless move to make, as has been proved.

[CanuckSARTech]

And, regarding the other comments about helping out the Somali's in other ways, rather than just shooting pirates....well, news flash, we tried that for years (military missions, humanitarian missions, UN intervention, etc., etc.), and still are continuing to do that (with aid groups and such), and yet this piracy issue is still going on and getting worse.

Now, are they former fishermen, and have little other recourse for money? Yes, but guess what - that's the story with fishing communities the world over, and you don't see east coast Canadians, or the French, or miscellaneous other areas in the world have their out-of-work fishermen turning to piracy. Somalia is a violent country, and no one has been pushing back, so they'll continue to push the envelope. What, because you lost your job, you can turn to murderous piracy??? Give me a break.

Now, on the pollution front, do they have a gripe about what's going on? Absolutely. It's disgusting what's been going on in the ocean around Somalia in the past few decades, with the illegal dumping and the toxic waste issues. But, again, for all that this happens in other countries around the world, does piracy solve that for them? No. Not once do I remember the pirates kidnapping a ship that's responsible for any bit of toxic dumping, and demanding that the pollution stops, and/or that they'll hold the sailors captive until a clean-up effort starts. No, they're hijacking ships for money, plain and simple. It's not for any higher "moral" purpose. They're doing it for power, lust, greed, and a bloodthirst for violence. Hey, if you want to clean up the water, Somali's, here's an idea - get yourselves organized, get a government in place, and then do something proper to stop it. All granted - it's ridiculous that the pollution has been happening, and that the U.N. and the international community hasn't lived up to their moral and ethical obligations to correct things - if they had, maybe this might not have started in the first place, completely a possibility. But that's not the reasoning behind what the pirates are doing now - it's just an excuse given, to try to justify things for/by them.

Hit 'em hard, and put them down permanently. They were given a huge second chance, last summer or last spring I believe, when a U.S. mission rescued some sailors, and killed and captured a bunch of these pirates, with Marine sharpshooters playing a big part. If the pirates weren't doing this for a violent power struggle, then they'd have gotten the message then that what they're doing is wrong, plain and simple. But, they just keep coming out and pushing the envelope. Wipe them out.

[JMH]

I would think that one good reason why the ships are not armed is that governments aren't too keen on armed foreign vessels pulling in to their civilian ports. As to why shipping companies don't pay for a small private navy, I would be surprised if their accountants haven't gone over possibilities like this, but decided they weren't financially sensible at the present. I was watching a documentary about one of the USN boats that patrols that area recently, and they said that the reason so many captured pirates are returned to Somalia, is that the governments of captured vessels decline to prosecute the pirates.

[Habanos2000]

I hope I'm not the only one that finds it ironic that the pirates can apparently do what they want but if you have a weapon on a pleasure craft you're breaking the law.

If I had to sail a ship through that area for business purposes, as sailing through there for pleasure is just asking for trouble, I'd be armed to the teeth. And if I saw a fast scow heading my way, believe me, there wouldn't be any witnesses.