don alejandro robaina

[El Presidente]

Fair point ken.

I think it is dangerous for anyone to pigeonhole someone. Just as dangerous to do it to oneself.

I think of myself as generally a conservative and yet I have vacillated over the years on various issues which I thought were core, rusted on opinion. The Gun issue is a case in point. I was pro responsible gun ownership, then after the massacre of Port Arthur I was anti and now 15 years later I am pro again. Actually, not so much Pro Gun but anti Govt and its incessant whittling away of freedoms. Govt is essentially a termite who for the "greater good" destroys the foundation of personal responsibility. I have come to the personal realisation that I am not comfortable with it. We now have a Government who wishes to inflict a global internet filter while almost everyone acknowledges that free nanny filters work just fine to stop porn from popping up on family desktops and laptops. Govt feeds on the dumbing down of its populace. More government, more legislation, more control = higher taxation, bigger public service, bigger government.

I use to think of people a decade ago who spruiked these concerns as kooks. I don't any longer.

[Colt45]

Actually, not so much Pro Gun but anti Govt and its incessant whittling away of freedoms. Govt is essentially a termite who for the "greater good" destroys the foundation of personal responsibility.

Ding ding ding - give that man a prize. Pick your cause - the reality remains the same. And it's not just governments per se. It's also small but

vocal special interest groups who feel entitled and therefore obligated to impose their beliefs upon the populace.

For me it's horrific...... it all makes me livid.

[Ken Gargett]

Ding ding ding - give that man a prize. Pick your cause - the reality remains the same. And it's not just governments per se. It's also small but

vocal special interest groups who feel entitled and therefore obligated to impose their beliefs upon the populace.

For me it's horrific...... it all makes me livid.

largely agree but there are sadly limits, humans being a long way from perfect. for example, something needs to stop developers from being allowed to destroy the earth without the slightest regard for the environment or the future. and some of these issues tend to divide opinion. for example, i would say that something needs to prevent humans having unlimited access to guns etc etc. you can argue there are responsible gun owners. i'm sure there are. there are far too many that are not. and where are the limits?

got to go.

[Colt45]

largely agree but there are sadly limits, humans being a long way from perfect.

KG, I have to believe that you realize we agree on much more than we disagree. Another time.

[Ken Gargett]

KG, I have to believe that you realize we agree on much more than we disagree. Another time.

never doubted that. just a couple of things i have to correct you on. i'm not holding my breath.

[Colt45]

never doubted that. just a couple of things i have to correct you on. i'm not holding my breath.

yeah, don't bust a gut on that........

[Guest rob]

Ken, I agree with all the points made.

It seems we are all on the same page, and fundamentally share the same ideals.

What I see as the differing point between us is that I'm not willing to quietly allow my responsiblities, morality and basic rights to be enforced upon me by a beaurocracy (or even a minority group) that clearly doesn't speak for the majority. If the majority deems it - then I'll follow.

For example - could you imagine an Australia that operated under Tony Abbotts ideal? You'll be at mass on Sunday wondering where it all went wrong. Politicians all do their best to get us to operate under their ideals... but if I understand correctly, that means they arent perfoming their roles correctly and we are one step closer to dictatorship.

btw: there is a doco on ABC tonight about Tony Abbott - looks interesting.

[PigFish]

I think one of the benefits of age is that you do not characterise or form an final opinion of someone until you have spent time with them. You can certainly get a gauge of someone through their posts and through their acts over the years but invariably, until you spend time with them them then the jury is out (for me).

Take yourself Ray. I know people can be polarized over your posts. I always have a chuckle !LOL!. I know you to be of good heart and sound thought who is passionate and reasonable. Someone who actually reads what others write and who takes the time to support or form a reasoned rebuttal. Personal attack (as opposed to corporate) does not enter into your arguments.

Then again we have spent time together (albeit little) but you can assess the true value of a person over a night on the turps and a strip club or two

I agree here my friend. It is the person who takes time to know those that he associates with that will be rewarded by what richness diversity brings. I have to challenge myself to do it sometimes, it can be a risk. I am one who categorizes people. My biases have in certain instances protected me and at other times hindered me. As an individual who strives for fairness I push myself out of my comfort zone to know and find common ground with those who have differing opinions. I can't say that I can always do it and I require at a minimum a fiber of respect for the individual. I admit it can be hard for me to overcome my personal prejudices sometimes. The key is recognition. It is that recognition of my own perception that pushes me to open the envelope of opportunity for intelligent conversation as it presents itself. This was one such opportunity and I am glad it was perceived as such. As a hardliner, one with ideologies often attributed to those who are hate mongering by those with diametric views, I push myself to dispel that viewpoint. It does not always work!!! -LOL

I did not speak up to talk about guns. I opened up to talk about perception. To find a pathway to explain how I think and to offer to others a pathway that they can use to explain themselves. That is if anyone takes the bait and decides to join the, "come to Jesus" meeting. I am glad you (all that have responded) jumped in.

Perhaps someday an individual, perhaps here on this board, can say that I have enlightened them about something. Perhaps it will be something about thin ring cigars. Perhaps it will be about natural rights or government. Perhaps it will be that guns are last line of protection of ones' natural rights... Maybe it will be Ken!!! -LOL

Thanks for reading Amigos! -R

[Chaki]

Don't want to steal your thunder Ken...but I thought this picture could be there for all of us who appreciate Don Alejandro.

I took it during the final dinner of the XVI Encuentro Amigos Partagas in April 2008. He signed a (most treasured) empty box of cigars for me.

[Wil]

guns are last line of protection of ones' natural rights...

Respectfully disagree with you on this one. I have no doubt that guns take away more life than they save.

[Wil]

It's also necessary to strike a balance between individual and collective freedoms. IMHO, this is the real aim of government.

[SnakeHips]

Ray, I'm a bit drunk, but don't let that sway my post. I'm a few decades younger than you (and a non-offensive way), and it's your posts I always look forward to. Why? Because, regardless of your positions on different things, you display the kind of wisdom that I admire, that I aspire to. Be it Cuban cigars or politics, I admire the kind of insight you have on what seem to be on the surface the most mundane of things, and when I see a post authored by you, I know I'm in for an intellectual treat, a fair-sided argument, a diatribe in the ideas I too-often put aside. Whether or not your opinions agree with anyone, you are respected in the community and your ideas are given thorough thought and consideration. I can honestly say that a person I've never seen or met and know nothing about is someone I admire - wisdom is among the greatest of things in this world, and I can say you are rich in it, and I truly aspire to your level of insight when I reach such maturity. For now, I can only read your unabashed thoughts.

So thank you for your postings, and don't apologize for your opinions. Everyone thinks a different way, and everyone here knows what you mean, so please express your ideas in uncensored glory. I truly admire your wisdom.

[PigFish]

Ray, I'm a bit drunk, but don't let that sway my post. I'm a few decades younger than you (and a non-offensive way), and it's your posts I always look forward to. Why? Because, regardless of your positions on different things, you display the kind of wisdom that I admire, that I aspire to. Be it Cuban cigars or politics, I admire the kind of insight you have on what seem to be on the surface the most mundane of things, and when I see a post authored by you, I know I'm in for an intellectual treat, a fair-sided argument, a diatribe in the ideas I too-often put aside. Whether or not your opinions agree with anyone, you are respected in the community and your ideas are given thorough thought and consideration. I can honestly say that a person I've never seen or met and know nothing about is someone I admire - wisdom is among the greatest of things in this world, and I can say you are rich in it, and I truly aspire to your level of insight when I reach such maturity. For now, I can only read your unabashed thoughts.

So thank you for your postings, and don't apologize for your opinions. Everyone thinks a different way, and everyone here knows what you mean, so please express your ideas in uncensored glory. I truly admire your wisdom.

Well... that will keep a smile on my face the rest of the day; what a beautiful complement.

I can see the wheels turning in Rob's brain now! "Jesus Man... don't encourage him!!!" -LOL

Oh... and for the record. I never apologize for my opinions. When I believe that what I write might be offensive to some I do try to square it with them one individual to another, or to the group. I am not insensitive, to proud or to blind to apologize for my actions. I try to write carefully as to minimize that but no interesting conversation can be wholly politically or emotionally inert. Even when you serve milk for dinner someone may get an upset stomach. Most people don't come to the party to get served milk!

Thanks for the thoughtful complements. -Piggy

[thechenman]

Respectfully disagree with you on this one. I have no doubt that guns take away more life than they save.

Wil...I have to respectfully disagree with you on this...

"Never pull a gun on someone unless you are prepared to use it."

"Never bring a knife to a gunfight."

I have no doubt that guns save more lives than take, whether it be warfare of simple personal defense. Ultimately it does come down to whose hands the guns are in though...

If you were of the criminal element, would you be more inclined to attack someone if you knew they were unarmed? If they had something you wanted, probably not.

Would you think twice about attacking that same person if you knew they were carrying a firearm? I would think so if you in anyway shape or form valued your own life.

[Ken Gargett]

Ken, I agree with all the points made.

It seems we are all on the same page, and fundamentally share the same ideals.

What I see as the differing point between us is that I'm not willing to quietly allow my responsiblities, morality and basic rights to be enforced upon me by a beaurocracy (or even a minority group) that clearly doesn't speak for the majority. If the majority deems it - then I'll follow.

rob, not sure why you think i am willing, if i read you correctly.

as for the last point, all for democracy but if you follow that literally, you'd have been two thumbs up for adolf in germany late 30's.

as for guns, we've done this to death and i doubt anyone is going to change their views because of this forum but if others are sticking their two cents in, i'll say again (and the reference to warfare is a completely different kettle of fish) that it is utterly incomprehensible to me how any sane society could go down the route that the states has chosen.

[Ken Gargett]

ps - i would not waste my time watching a show on tony abbott if i thought i would live to a thousand. i would not believe a word he said if he had asupporting affidavit from god himself. that said, he is no worse than rudd. talk about an election between the lowest common denominators imaginable. i wish they'd tell us when the election is so i can plan to be overseas or in a coma.

[Buch0]

ps - i would not waste my time watching a show on tony abbott if i thought i would live to a thousand. i would not believe a word he said if he had asupporting affidavit from god himself. that said, he is no worse than rudd. talk about an election between the lowest common denominators imaginable. i wish they'd tell us when the election is so i can plan to be overseas or in a coma.

Funny you say that, I read a 5 line article in the telegraph today saying how the show was nothing different to what we already knew, the fact he is a peanut.. I also thought to myself what a waste of time it was reading that article, all 10 seconds of it, let alone watching the show itself. Cant stand the guy.

[Guest rob]

I watched the doco.... I learnt nothing more about the bloke, except perhaps that he is probably more cunning, and more planned with his gaffs, than I previoulsy gave him credit for. May a higher diety save us if he becomes PM.

[PigFish]

interesting post, ray. and no offence of course.

i assume the last bit means that just occasionally govts sort of get it right.

it has never occured to me to think of you as cold, pompous, hearthearted - not at all. by the same token, i am utterly stunned that anyone thinks of me as pro large govt (the oft expressed views that politicians sit somewhere below slime on the evolutionary scale alone should have pointed you in the other direction).

bit pushed for time so can only respond briefly and suspect that this needs more thought but for many years, i was seen as very much on the right wing side of politics. a few issues didn't fit that - guns (though that was only really a big issue here after the port arthur massacre) and the environment especially (anyone trying to pigeonhole me on just those issues would probably be largely misled). suspect i am less so now but i doubt anyone who knows me or who has known me for any length of time would think of me as left leaning in any way. probably a bit all over the place and i think, very much like most aussies, have a soft spot for the underdog in any endeavour.

and anyone who had spent any time with me over last few weeks or the rest of this one as i plough through trying to sort out my tax would not put me within a million miles of any pro govt stance, big or small.

Hey Ken, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this. With a bunch of personal correspondences left unanswered and the loss of Chuck I have been a little less than motivated to finish this reply. I hope it is not too late for this one as I wanted to make some further points.

No actually Ken the last bit was a statement of confidence in you. I was indicating that despite my observations and perception of what you write, I credit you for being who you claim to be and not what I would believe you to be, based on my perception of your writing. I hope that makes sense. It is why I stated that I think you are misunderstood. I admit to being one who has misunderstood you.

I wrote quite a bit earlier about how people tend to classify other people. It was long and drawn out and frankly I made a bit of a mess out of it in trying to make the "classification" of people sound less offensive or less prejudicial. I don't know what it is about persons making assumption of others based on what they write or what they say that is offensive but it appears to come out that way no matter how I write it. Although I am not a politically correct person I am sensitive to those who are sensitive to prejudice. Categorizing people, perhaps unless in some government list of statistics, is redolent of prejudice. I don't want to write tens of pages to fight the stigma. I don't agree with it! I hate political correctness, but I am not here to offend a bunch of people either.

As I said earlier, I misunderstood you. It took efforts, like Rob said about meeting people, to get to know you, to realize that my categorization of you as a leftist was perhaps incorrect. However I do believe that what you write about leads people to believe you are one!

I really do think that there are some outspoken people whose opinions are so diametrically opposed to those of others that they may think another is an extremist of some sort. My opinions allow me to be categorized as one by some people. Denial on my part would be naive of me. I see, feel, smell and taste, I classify my surroundings into things I like and dislike, people that I like and dislike. I therefore believe that my fellow man does the same. While I can see that we all have differing perspectives, I believe that human behavior is a group of actions that we all share certain subsets of. Those common subsets are called normality. I can extrapolate enough from this to make a point. There are innate similarities on many levels between individuals and one is that we tend to categorize things into groups. Without categories we could not differentiate between friends and enemies; likes and dislikes or even light and dark laundry! With that all said, I believe that you may be viewed as one who is not "who" he really is! Anyone who speaks up allows himself to be classified by his opinions; you, me, everyone.

While I did not write this to enter into the realm of specific political topics I need the topics to make a point. The topics that you speak passionately about are representative of those used as major platforms of the political left. The same can be said about me with my talking points as they relate to the political right (wing). I accept being categorized, it is the price of sharing my opinion. I recognize that I can be classified by anyone willing to give thought to it and I may rightfully belong to some of the catagories.

I therefore see you, or better stated, see "how" you are likely perceived the same way I see how I am likely perceived. You take platforms that are commonly associated with a political group, therefore you are likely categorized in that group. You appeared to be shocked or at least surprised at the thought. I don't think you should be and as a friend I wanted to explain it to you.

What I gain from this is that I am hoping that through these conversations I can understand you a bit better. You are still somewhat of an enigma to me. One thing I don't understand is how you can possess some strong opinions associated with the left and not consider yourself a leftist? This is why I choose to explore your personality so much. I want to understand how we can share a core principle, for example a dislike of oppressive government, and yet hold different viewpoints on what rights free people need to posses to preserve their freedom and limit oppressive governments. On my part I think it may be that I fear oppressive governments as I have seen what they do to people. Perhaps you possess no such fear.

I would like nothing more than to convince you that some of your views are conflicting. As you have stated, it probably won't happen. This is my perception of course and it is not meant cast any insult upon you. I can only speculate that you may think the same of me. But it is in your dislike for oppressive government I see a core belief that we share. That is a powerful core belief. I think that if you are someone who realizes what damage can be inflicted on humanity by a man and gun (a position you are passionate about) you can be shown that it is miniscule to what genocides can be inflicted by a government or other group of men on a population unable to defend themselves with them. Perhaps you fear men with guns, or guns themselves. What I fear are tyrants with guns or any other source of power.

I would enjoy the exploration of these commonalities more with you if it does not wreak havoc on the board at the same time. In the mean time I would like you to consider a few things.

What would have been the outcome of 6 million armed Jews on kristallnacht? Have you ever paused to think about that?

How would the armed Chinese farmer have met imperialist Japanese troops as they embarked on their campaigns of beheadings? How would Maoist tax collectors been met by the collective farmers as their crops were stolen to make communist farming quotas which left them to starve by the millions?

You stated earlier something about not wanting counties to go down the same path as the US; what would our world look like if King George succeeded in disarming the colonies and they did not have the ability to fight for the freedom they possess now? Would Europe be speaking German. Would Australia be speaking Japanese? Who knows?

How many millions of slaughtered, starved, gassed and beaten, oppressed people would be alive today if they only possessed the ability to defend their own lives, property and freedom from those who would steal it from them? Those people died in the course of history and their blood while not on my hands is on my mind; everyday! My argument for gun rights in not about plinking cans or defending my home. It is not one of tradition but of the innate human right of freedom. It is about the hundreds of millions of souls lost to tyrants and tyrannical governments who had a chance to live freely... if they were only able to arm themselves and defend their freedom to live.

Best, Ray

[Colt45]

......but of the innate human right of freedom.

Bravo.

[thechenman]

Very well said Ray...

[gfoster]

I have to say, I initially skipped over that long wall of text because my eyes generally glaze over. However, something was telling me to go back and read it and pay attention and I'm glad I did.

Very very very well said, Ray.

-- Gary F.

[Warren]

Wow , and all this from a simple picture of an old man sitting in a chair holding a cigar.

I am often amazed at how a thread can change in it's course from poster to poster but it's also one of the reasons why I keep reading, you never know where it will lead.

[Buch0]

Great post Ray, I am stating the obvious when I say you passion is enormously appreciated around here. You make for top reading, the board wouldn't be the same without you

[PigFish]

Wow , and all this from a simple picture of an old man sitting in a chair holding a cigar.

I am often amazed at how a thread can change in it's course from poster to poster but it's also one of the reasons why I keep reading, you never know where it will lead.

I hold Ken responsible for all misconduct... including mine! -LOL Okay... it is Rob's fault too! -Mr. P