Chavez at it again

[anacostiakat]

Acquisition by force!

[thechenman]

F'n BS...somebody needs to put Chavez out of my misery.

[cigarros]

Ha-ha! Another "effort" to boost tourisim in Venezuela))

[sandholm]

F'n BS...somebody needs to put Chavez out of my misery.

Just a question.. So Chavez was elected by a democratic public elections in Venezuela, so i then guess that you are not for democratic public elections then, right?

Sorry, just have to put it in perspective, he was elected by the people of Venezuela, so why do we have the right to tell them that they are wrong? I am not talking about dictators here, i think that they should be fought ( even if i dont believe in military power, i have been in the army to long for that), but here we do have an elected president...

[anacostiakat]

Just a question.. So Chavez was elected by a democratic public elections in Venezuela, so i then guess that you are not for democratic public elections then, right?

Sorry, just have to put it in perspective, he was elected by the people of Venezuela, so why do we have the right to tell them that they are wrong? I am not talking about dictators here, i think that they should be fought ( even if i dont believe in military power, i have been in the army to long for that), but here we do have an elected president...

I dont think that is what people are complaining about. Venezuelans must sleep in the bed they have made.

I guess it will be up to the world court to handle the confiscation of property.

Of course if it was my property I might not be so glib.. .

[El Presidente]

Just a question.. So Chavez was elected by a democratic public elections in Venezuela, so i then guess that you are not for democratic public elections then, right?

Sorry, just have to put it in perspective, he was elected by the people of Venezuela, so why do we have the right to tell them that they are wrong? I am not talking about dictators here, i think that they should be fought ( even if i dont believe in military power, i have been in the army to long for that), but here we do have an elected president...

Since when has democratic government been a gauge for what is right? Hitler comes to mind and yes...the Germans were wrong for electing him and the world paid a damn high price for doing so.

[El Presidente]

Since when has democratic government been a gauge for what is right? Hitler comes to mind and yes...the Germans were wrong for electing him and the world paid a damn high price for doing so.

I should expand on the above in that Hitler received a democratic vote in the mid 30%. it was normal democratic wheeling and dealing amongst the other parties that saw him elected. Either way it was constitutional under the system at the time.

Outside of meglomaniac leaders, Germany of the 30's and Venezuela today share a similar feature. Neither had/has any history of true democratic culture/government.

[smk819]

Just a question.. So Chavez was elected by a democratic public elections in Venezuela, so i then guess that you are not for democratic public elections then, right?

Sorry, just have to put it in perspective, he was elected by the people of Venezuela, so why do we have the right to tell them that they are wrong? I am not talking about dictators here, i think that they should be fought ( even if i dont believe in military power, i have been in the army to long for that), but here we do have an elected president...

It actually was a dubious election victory. The Stamp of approval was put on by that friend of Dictators "Smiling Jimmy Carter". I don't think there is a left wing thug that Carter doesn't like.

[anacostiakat]

It actually was a dubious election victory. The Stamp of approval was put on by that friend of Dictators "Smiling Jimmy Carter". I don't think there is a left wing thug that Carter doesn't like.

It is Smiling Jimmah Carter.. . .

[thechenman]

Just a question.. So Chavez was elected by a democratic public elections in Venezuela, so i then guess that you are not for democratic public elections then, right?

Sorry, just have to put it in perspective, he was elected by the people of Venezuela, so why do we have the right to tell them that they are wrong? I am not talking about dictators here, i think that they should be fought ( even if i dont believe in military power, i have been in the army to long for that), but here we do have an elected president...

If you believe that the democratic process in Venezuela is alive and well and that fake ballots were not cast and counted. I have a bridge I would like to sell you in Manhattan. Wanna come by and take a look? There is a big difference between a democracy and the facade of a democracy. The facade is just that...it is fake...it is not real. There have been far too many political leaders who "claim" to have been elected to office (read: power) and simply did away with elections or had them fixed. Also...just becasue the people of a country elect someone to office, there is no rule that says citizens or governments of other countries must be satisfied with the end result. Being in the miitary you should have a keen perception of this...

[Kangaroo495]

Venezuela is definitely a facade as Chenman says. Same thing happens in Russia. The leading party always gets at LEAST 80% of the democratic vote.

Why? Because nobody knows who the opposition is! They get no air-time on TV, hardly anything about them in the news. They are harassed, and often barred from entering elections.

On the other hand, the leading party is portrayed as the saviour of Russia. This, you can read and hear about on every channel and in every newspaper.

So who you gonna vote for then? They don't need to fix elections here.

[sandholm]

Since when has democratic government been a gauge for what is right? Hitler comes to mind and yes...the Germans were wrong for electing him and the world paid a damn high price for doing so.

Well, Hitler and pre-ww2 Germany is rather hard to compare to this, because Hitler where elected in a democratic process and then he changed the constitution, basically fired the parliament and became a dictator..

Chavez is still elected by the people, and as long the people support him, do we have the right to fight him? Personal i would love to see another leader in Venezuela, but the question is do we have the right to tell these people that they are wrong and they need a new leader?

[El Presidente]

Well, Hitler and pre-ww2 Germany is rather hard to compare to this, because Hitler where elected in a democratic process and then he changed the constitution, basically fired the parliament and became a dictator..

Chavez is still elected by the people, and as long the people support him, do we have the right to fight him? Personal i would love to see another leader in Venezuela, but the question is do we have the right to tell these people that they are wrong and they need a new leader?

Hmmmm. A young Captain Chavez led a military coup in 1992...albeit failed. Once he eventually took the reigns of government he changed the constitution....took him two goes and a lots of $'s + some well timed political opposition jailings.

Hard to compare? Hmmmmm

Bottom line is there are "democracies"...... and democracies. The people ultimately get the government they deserve. International law should be quite simple in relation to nationalization of foreign interests. Complete freeze of all Venezuelan assets held overseas.

[sandholm]

If you believe that the democratic process in Venezuela is alive and well and that fake ballots were not cast and counted.

I cant judge the election in Venezuela, because i dont have the information. But on the other hand i would not say because its Venezuela it has to be rigde.

If you read wiki (which i dont like) there are concerns, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_pr..._election,_2006

But let me remeind you of two elections

1: Florida and Bush!

2 Italy and Berlusconi!

I have huge doubt about these two, if i follow your argument i should conclude that both the US and Italy is not a democratic country...

Its easy to judge without the facts.

There is a big difference between a democracy and the facade of a democracy. The facade is just that...it is fake...it is not real. There have been far too many political leaders who "claim" to have been elected to office (read: power) and simply did away with elections or had them fixed.

Italy and Florida..

Also...just becasue the people of a country elect someone to office, there is no rule that says citizens or governments of other countries must be satisfied with the end result. Being in the miitary you should have a keen perception of this...

No there is no rule that says that you have to like a government, but i believe that each person has a right to believe in what he she thinks is right, if its political ideas or religious ideas. That is why i was in the army, to defend that anyone can believe in what he/she thinks, to pray to whatever god he/she believes in. So the person can go and cast a vote for the person that he/she trust without being attack, or go and pray in a church or a mosk.

I did not join the army to push an idea down another mans through and say "You should believe in this" or "You have to pray to this god", that would be against my believe that each man has the right to decide what is right for him, if he wants a dictator he should be free to vote for a dictator, if he wants a right wing government or a communist government the he should be free to elect them.

This is what we fought for, I believe that military or force should not be used to change elected government, if you want to change an elected government then try to change the peoples mind if you go in with force and say "We will liberate you" you will give them war in the name of democracy and that will only backfire, instead of giving them peace you will give them war, instead of giving them stability you will give them an unsecured environment. Its very very easy to sit in a house, in the us or in switzerland ( i am not swiss) and say, "We need to change this government or we need to send our military here to rescue these people"

Someone said "When old people wage war its the young people that dies"

I saw a document on CNN about a group of doctors that worked in Afghanistan, they entered parts where the army didn't even go into. First they where meet with suspicion, but after a couple of days people started to show up. Then one day this Taliban man came with his dying son and the doctors saved the kid, after this they interviewed the father and he said that he had all the time being told to hate the US and that was enforced seeing the fighter planes flying over and bombing them, but now, when the US doctor had saved his son, how could he hate the US? US had saved his only son!

I served in the parachuter regiment staring as a soldier and left in honor as a lieutenant (2e REP), and the biggest lesson i learned in the military is that you will never change peoples mind or life by force, you can only do it by changing how people think and live. I always sad that our biggest resources where never our guns, or our tactics, they could keep us alive, but our biggest resources where always our brain combined with some chocolates and some medical equipment...

that is how you get people on your side, change there life dont take there life

Same with elections, inform people and give them choices instead of making the choices for them

just my thoughts..

[sandholm]

Hmmmm. A young Captain Chavez led a military coup in 1992...albeit failed. Once he eventually took the reigns of government he changed the constitution....took him two goes and a lots of $'s + some well timed political opposition jailings.

I agree, he changed the constitution, no doubt about that, but he still elected and he did change the constitution in the way listed in there law system... Its a fine call, and I totally agree that he dont respect human rights nor can he be called a defender of democracy.. its a hard call, but when do we have the right to over through such a leader?

Hard to compare? Hmmmmm

Bottom line is there are "democracies"...... and democracies. The people ultimately get the government they deserve. International law should be quite simple in relation to nationalization of foreign interests. Complete freeze of all Venezuelan assets held overseas.

I totally agree, but if you do so, who will suffer? Chaves or the people? Do General Than Shwe in Bruma suffer because we have freeze all the overseas assets, or do the people of Burma suffer?

What Than Shwe is doing is telling the people "look we dont have any food or medical because the rest of the world is against us"

Its hard, the best thing would be to punish the leaders but save the people... but how do you do that

[Freefallguy]

1: Florida and Bush!

2 Italy and Berlusconi!

I have huge doubt about these two, if i follow your argument i should conclude that both the US and Italy is not a democratic country...

The USA is NOT a democracy; we’re a democratic republic. Huge difference.

[Freefallguy]

Hmmmm. A young Captain Chavez led a military coup in 1992...albeit failed. Once he eventually took the reigns of government he changed the constitution....took him two goes and a lots of $'s + some well timed political opposition jailings.

Hard to compare? Hmmmmm

Bottom line is there are "democracies"...... and democracies. The people ultimately get the government they deserve. International law should be quite simple in relation to nationalization of foreign interests. Complete freeze of all Venezuelan assets held overseas.

Ortega is on the same pace in Nicaragua; in fact he may have set the standards in the '80's. Sadly it's the average Jose that gets rooted.

[sandholm]

The USA is NOT a democracy; we’re a democratic republic. Huge difference.

Could you please clarify this, i did junior and senior year in high school in the US (parents that traveled a lot) and I learned (at least in NY) that the US is a democracy and a republic,

democratic: 1 vote per person and government is elected by the whole population

republic: There is no monarch (king/queen) instead a President

cheers

[android]

He needs to run his head into a 50 cal.

[thechenman]

I cant judge the election in Venezuela, because i dont have the information. But on the other hand i would not say because its Venezuela it has to be rigde.

If you read wiki (which i dont like) there are concerns, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_pr..._election,_2006

But let me remeind you of two elections

1: Florida and Bush!

2 Italy and Berlusconi!

I have huge doubt about these two, if i follow your argument i should conclude that both the US and Italy is not a democratic country...

Its easy to judge without the facts.

Italy and Florida..

No there is no rule that says that you have to like a government, but i believe that each person has a right to believe in what he she thinks is right, if its political ideas or religious ideas. That is why i was in the army, to defend that anyone can believe in what he/she thinks, to pray to whatever god he/she believes in. So the person can go and cast a vote for the person that he/she trust without being attack, or go and pray in a church or a mosk.

I did not join the army to push an idea down another mans through and say "You should believe in this" or "You have to pray to this god", that would be against my believe that each man has the right to decide what is right for him, if he wants a dictator he should be free to vote for a dictator, if he wants a right wing government or a communist government the he should be free to elect them.

This is what we fought for, I believe that military or force should not be used to change elected government, if you want to change an elected government then try to change the peoples mind if you go in with force and say "We will liberate you" you will give them war in the name of democracy and that will only backfire, instead of giving them peace you will give them war, instead of giving them stability you will give them an unsecured environment. Its very very easy to sit in a house, in the us or in switzerland ( i am not swiss) and say, "We need to change this government or we need to send our military here to rescue these people"

Someone said "When old people wage war its the young people that dies"

I saw a document on CNN about a group of doctors that worked in Afghanistan, they entered parts where the army didn't even go into. First they where meet with suspicion, but after a couple of days people started to show up. Then one day this Taliban man came with his dying son and the doctors saved the kid, after this they interviewed the father and he said that he had all the time being told to hate the US and that was enforced seeing the fighter planes flying over and bombing them, but now, when the US doctor had saved his son, how could he hate the US? US had saved his only son!

I served in the parachuter regiment staring as a soldier and left in honor as a lieutenant (2e REP), and the biggest lesson i learned in the military is that you will never change peoples mind or life by force, you can only do it by changing how people think and live. I always sad that our biggest resources where never our guns, or our tactics, they could keep us alive, but our biggest resources where always our brain combined with some chocolates and some medical equipment...

that is how you get people on your side, change there life dont take there life

Same with elections, inform people and give them choices instead of making the choices for them

just my thoughts..

Sandholm...I have to say that while I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it on most counts. I apologize if I came or come across as glib, but my view of the world differs significantly from yours. Therein could be the root of our differences.

You mentioned that you can't judge the election in Venzuela because you don't have the information - you then infer that the election may not have been rigged just because its Venezuela. Being a military man myself...I understand that first hand information is best, but sometimes you have to gather your intel from 10,000 feet. Is that as good? Obviously not, but we use it out of necessity. Is it always right? I freely offer that it is not...it has led to debacles like the WOMD "blowup" (pun intended) of the Bush Administration's invasion of Iraq.

On a side note let's be honest here...the real reason America invaded Iraq was not because of WOMDs, but rather to get rid of Saddam in a bid to stabilize the Middle East and allow the U.S. a larger foothold with more political influence in a oil rich portion of the world which the U.S. is dependent upon. Anything else in my opinion is pure fiction. Call me cynical, but that is my view.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...there are a wide number of publications that talk about the corruption of the electoral process in Venezuela. Chavez, himself is tha target of many claims (and we are talking more than the norm here) about political corruption.

You then go on to mention Italy and Berlusconi, and Florida and Bush as examples of elections that show them as not being democracies. My opinion is that you are stretching here. While I don't claim to know much about what went on in Italy, I do know what happened here in the states. But let me just ask you, how many terms did Bush serve? Two. Two because he was allowed to serve only two terms. Meanwhile Chavez is trying to get the Venezuelan government to allow him to run for re-election indefinitley. Tell me that is not a bid towards a dictatorship. Sounds like a Banana Republic to me. As for Berlusconi...I can't defend him, his actions...or that of his countrymen. But "hanging chads" is a far cry from what has been going on in Venezuela. If there was fraud, I think it would have been more sophisticated than that. After all...each candidate benefitted to a degree from this...it just turns out that one individual benefitted more. So when you go on th say that Italy and Florida are not democracies, but only the facade of one...well...I can say maybe Italy, but certainly not the U.S.

You are right that each indvidual has the right to believe what he wants...however the oppression of people is not okay. And that is what is going on in too many countries...whether it be Iraq, Venezuela or even Cuba. You say that you do not push your views upon anyone...that is admirable. But you are or were a soldier. I come from a long line of soldiers. Every male on both sides of my family from my great grandfather on down has been in service with the army or navy. I myself was an armor officer. If there is one thing I learned from my family and the U.S. Army is that officers and soldiers are entitled to their own opinions, but their actions are dictated by the government, and regardless of our personal feelings, our job is to execute the orders of said government, whether it be humanitarian missions or the termination of an enemy with extreme prejudice. We do what we are ordered becasue that is our job. Maybe in your country it may be different, but I think not. Force is sometimes necessary...not to change a people, but to change the way they live.

I have many good friends from college that I went through ROTC with...on in particular is a combat surgeon recently back from Afghanistan. While your CNN story is rosy...I can tell you stories of he and his medical team trying to help the sick in various out of the way villages and drawing fire from insurgents while doing so. Yes...being nice you may win the hearts of a few, but there are far more than don't give a rat's ass...those are the people we call radicals.

Don't get me wrong...it's nice to hand out candy bars, MREs, medical supplies, clothes and blankets, but those only accomplish part of the mission. You need guns for the other half. That is sad, but true. It is reality. While you may disagree as you are entitled to...these are my opinions. In my view Venezuela would be better off without Chavez. His absence would give Venezuela a better shot at achieveing true democracy.

[El Presidente]

I think this thread gathered steam when I said Hitler was elected. and then it was pointed out that the comparison was a "stretch" because hitler changed the constitution (mind you..so did Chavez) and became a dictator.

I think there are election results challenged in most parts of the Democratic world. I know they are here. Not the first time dead people have voted !LOL! I think we can agree that no Democracy is perfect and they never will be because they are designed by politicians who long ago stopped representing the people as their primary purpose for being.

However some Democracies are benign (generally do a good job) and some a malignant (parade as a democracy but are rotten to the core).

Chavez has no interest in democracy. The minute the rural/poor vote fades then he will take further action to stay in power.

Venezuela will never be invaded. There is no need to as a freezing of assets globally would bring them to their knees. If Chavez wants to nationalize a hotel chain....fine. Let the US seize his US Petrol distribution assets.

No need to go to war on this one.

[thechenman]

I think this thread gathered steam when I said Hitler was elected. and then it was pointed out that the comparison was a "stretch" because hitler changed the constitution (mind you..so did Chavez) and became a dictator.

I think there are election results challenged in most parts of the Democratic world. I know they are here. Not the first time dead people have voted !LOL! I think we can agree that no Democracy is perfect and they never will be because they are designed by politicians who long ago stopped representing the people as their primary purpose for being.

However some Democracies are benign (generally do a good job) and some a malignant (parade as a democracy but are rotten to the core).

Chavez has no interest in democracy. The minute the rural/poor vote fades then he will take further action to stay in power.

Venezuela will never be invaded. There is no need to as a freezing of assets globally would bring them to their knees. If Chavez wants to nationalize a hotel chain....fine. Let the US seize his US Petrol distribution assets.

No need to go to war on this one.

Well said Prez...well said...

[anacostiakat]

Could you please clarify this, i did junior and senior year in high school in the US (parents that traveled a lot) and I learned (at least in NY) that the US is a democracy and a republic,

democratic: 1 vote per person and government is elected by the whole population

republic: There is no monarch (king/queen) instead a President

cheers

For those who are interested

Democracy vs Republic

and here is one I enjoy

[Nino]

Well, Hitler and pre-ww2 Germany is rather hard to compare to this, because Hitler where elected in a democratic process and then he changed the constitution, basically fired the parliament and became a dictator..

well, you just described developments in Venezuela and what Chavez is all about quite well ..........

[cigarros]

I am convinced that for venezuelians democratic process as welcome as water in one's shoes. Because beggars cannot be choosers