Anyone aging boxes in ziplocks?

[Evo03]

I've been storing some of my boxes in ziplock bags for the last year. My coolers have 65% beads, and the hygrometers show anywhere from 65-67% humidity.

The issue is, I've had a few instances of mold inside the boxes. It's always a dress box, never a SLB. And never in a box that's not ziplocked. The times it's happened, it was very minor and wiped off easily. The temperature in the basement where they're stored is around 60 degrees F in the winter, and 67 degrees in the summer.

Anyone else have this happen? Should I use 60% beads for the cooler with ziplocks? I'm starting to think it's not worth aging in bags, if it means mold is going to be an issue.

Any advice how to fix this?

[Ginseng]

I keep my coolers packed tightly so there really isn't any additional benefit conferred by ziploc'ing. Keep this in mind: the primary function of the ziploc is to keep the internal environment of the box or cab stable and isolated. In the worst of cases, a large cabinet that is fairly empty and opened frequently, a ziploc would be a benefit as it would buffer the cigars inside the box inside the ziploc from experiencing large swings of humidity from the opening and closing of the cabinet. Otherwise, when opened, all that delicious aromatic goodness you're sniffing is escaping. Think of it as "the angels' share" of cigars.

So, if you store your cigars loosely stacked inside a large cabinet or walk-in, a ziploc could potentially provide some benefit. On the other hand, if you keep your boxes tightly tetris'd inside coolers that are infrequently accessed, ziplocs would be almost entirely superfluous.

Wilkey

[android]

So, if you store your cigars loosely stacked inside a large cabinet or walk-in, a ziploc could potentially provide some benefit. On the other hand, if you keep your boxes tightly tetris'd inside coolers that are infrequently accessed, ziplocs would be almost entirely superfluous.

Wilkeyy

Luv this Wilkey...you master of Tetrisology!

[Ginseng]

It's the way I roll. Pack 'em tight, pack 'em full, and enjoy!

Wilkey

[Justin01]

I have lots of room in my coolidor, would i want the ziplocks open or sealed?

[Trevor2118]

I've been storing some of my boxes in ziplock bags for the last year.

I keep all my singles in ziplocks....but I punch a 5mm round vent in the bag. This is IMHO necessary to allow humidity balance (as the ziplock material does not appear to transpire). Apart from this, the bag is primarily a protective measure from physical damage. I store at 16 deg C (61F) and 65% RH....year round.

[Ginseng]

I have lots of room in my coolidor, would i want the ziplocks open or sealed?

I have an intake and equilibration cooler that is a 48 qt Coleman and I don't use ziplocs except for loose cigars. It's typically only 25-50% full at any given time. This is the only case where I find a protective benefit from physical damage.

I keep all my singles in ziplocks....but I punch a 5mm round vent in the bag. This is IMHO necessary to allow humidity balance (as the ziplock material does not appear to transpire). Apart from this, the bag is primarily a protective measure from physical damage. I store at 16 deg C (61F) and 65% RH....year round.

Ziplocs are made from polyethylene and are considered pretty moisture permeable. Of course the thicker the bag, the slower the process. What do you see, Trevor, that is suggesting to you that they need to transpire? Are you seeing condensation without the hole? If you are, then the box is not properly or fully equilibrated to the cabinet environment prior to putting it in the ziploc. So, while your cabinet may be stable, the incoming cigar may have to give up substantial quantities of moisture to get to 61/65. I say this because almost all shipping retailers I've encountered send their cigars significantly more moist that I'd prefer.

Wilkey

[armedak]

I've stored some of my collection in ziplocks for years with zero mold issues. However, I store the boxes or cabs for a few months at 65% and let them equilibrate to the proper humidity and storage conditions before I put them in the ziplock bags for long term storage. I believe this is an important step to prevent mold issues. It sounds like you might be bagging sticks which are fairly moist and the moisture is unable to effectively escape and is cause of your mold issues.

[Ginseng]

I've stored some of my collection in ziplocks for years with zero mold issues. However, I store the boxes or cabs for a few months at 65% and let them equilibrate to the proper humidity and storage conditions before I put them in the ziplock bags for long term storage. I believe this is an important step to prevent mold issues. It sounds like you might be bagging sticks which are fairly moist and the moisture is unable to effectively escape and is cause of your mold issues.

I concur.

Wilkey

[Wil]

Is it essential to keep boxes in ziplock bags for long-term storage?

[Ginseng]

Is it essential to keep boxes in ziplock bags for long-term storage?

Essential in what sense? In the sense of minimizing loss of flavor compounds and slowing down the maturation of the cigars by restricting transpiration of oxygen and aging by-products? If so, then it would be useful, to a degree. Even better would be to gently seal them in a vacuum bag (e.g., CryoVac). Vac bags are made of different plastics designed to slow down the movement of oxygen and moisture to prevent freezer burn. The same applies to aging cigars.

If you intend to smoke cigars in their first year or two, and you prefer a younger profile: no bags.

If you prefer to smoke cigars over 2-5 years and enjoy a cigar that has aged somewhat: probably don't want a bag.

If you won't be smoking them for 5-10 years and you enjoy an aged profile: probably don't want a bag.

If you won't be smoking them for 5-10 years and you enjoy a fresher profile: then probably a bag.

Theoretically of course. No one has really done the work to bring data to this discussion. But in general, I tend to think that the longer you intend to age, and the fresher you prefer the profile, the more a bag might be up your alley.

Wilkey

[kcmontie]

this topic fascinates me....I would be curious how many of you follow the MRN long term ageing practices....I do none of them only because im so new to this obession

[Wil]

Essential in what sense? In the sense of minimizing loss of flavor compounds and slowing down the maturation of the cigars by restricting transpiration of oxygen and aging by-products? If so, then it would be useful, to a degree. Even better would be to gently seal them in a vacuum bag (e.g., CryoVac). Vac bags are made of different plastics designed to slow down the movement of oxygen and moisture to prevent freezer burn. The same applies to aging cigars.

If you intend to smoke cigars in their first year or two, and you prefer a younger profile: no bags.

If you prefer to smoke cigars over 2-5 years and enjoy a cigar that has aged somewhat: probably don't want a bag.

If you won't be smoking them for 5-10 years and you enjoy an aged profile: probably don't want a bag.

If you won't be smoking them for 5-10 years and you enjoy a fresher profile: then probably a bag.

Theoretically of course. No one has really done the work to bring data to this discussion. But in general, I tend to think that the longer you intend to age, and the fresher you prefer the profile, the more a bag might be up your alley.

Wilkey

Some food for thought there! Thanks Wilkey!

[soltino]

So, while your cabinet may be stable, the incoming cigar may have to give up substantial quantities of moisture to get to 61/65. I say this because almost all shipping retailers I've encountered send their cigars significantly more moist that I'd prefer.

Excellent point Wilkey, and something I hadn't considered before.

You are a mine of useful information, thank you for sharing

[Colt45]

In the sense of minimizing loss of flavor compounds and slowing down the maturation of the cigars by restricting transpiration of oxygen and aging by-products?

Which makes me ask: why take a five year process and intentionally turn it into ten years? (numbers for example only).

If a cigar will reach peak flavor in five years unbagged, why bag thhem and wait for ten?

[thechenman]

Wow...I was not aware of the use of ziplocs. Very fascinating topic, as i am one who does like to age their cigars. Wilkey your level of knowledge is encyclopedic. I love this forum...I am constantly learning something new. Thanks for all of your insight guys.

[rallones]

Which makes me ask: why take a five year process and intentionally turn it into ten years? (numbers for example only).

If a cigar will reach peak flavor in five years unbagged, why bag thhem and wait for ten?

I ziploc all my smokes. For a multi-year period, I bought way too many (way too many -- I have enough to last about 30 years at my current pace) smokes than my smoking frequency warranted. I ziploc them to slow down their aging because they would otherwise expire before I enjoy them. I have found that, in addition to slowing down the aging process, and not to parrot MRN, the bagged smokes do age "more gracefully." I just finished a Partagas 8-9-8 from '98 that is very rich, full and balanced, and still has plenty of legs to stick around. Earlier this week, I had a Partagas Tres Petit Corona from '98 that is still closed (the box I have from '97 is even more closed, but I think that's due in part to '97 smokes being, in my experience, especially robust and powerful).

My aging horizon is quite long -- I don't even think about smoking a cigar (at least not a Cuban) unless it's got 7+ years on it. I have probably 25 boxes that are 10 years old or older. My preferences are based on my palate and unique circumstances. Others in different circumstances will act differently.

My hope is that, in addition to having beautifiully aged smokes (I keep my walk-in at 62/62), I may have the opportunity to sell some of these smokes in the future. That isn't why I bought them (except maybe the 3rd and 4th boxes of Ramon Allones 8-9-8s), but I view it as an added bonus.

[thechenman]

I ziploc all my smokes. For a multi-year period, I bought way too many (way too many -- I have enough to last about 30 years at my current pace) smokes than my smoking frequency warranted. I ziploc them to slow down their aging because they would otherwise expire before I enjoy them. I have found that, in addition to slowing down the aging process, and not to parrot MRN, the bagged smokes do age "more gracefully." I just finished a Partagas 8-9-8 from '98 that is very rich, full and balanced, and still has plenty of legs to stick around. Earlier this week, I had a Partagas Tres Petit Corona from '98 that is still closed (the box I have from '97 is even more closed, but I think that's due in part to '97 smokes being, in my experience, especially robust and powerful).

My aging horizon is quite long -- I don't even think about smoking a cigar (at least not a Cuban) unless it's got 7+ years on it. I have probably 25 boxes that are 10 years old or older. My preferences are based on my palate and unique circumstances. Others in different circumstances will act differently.

My hope is that, in addition to having beautifiully aged smokes (I keep my walk-in at 62/62), I may have the opportunity to sell some of these smokes in the future. That isn't why I bought them (except maybe the 3rd and 4th boxes of Ramon Allones 8-9-8s), but I view it as an added bonus.

Sounds like an amazing collection. I admire your restraint.

[thechenman]

I ziploc all my smokes. For a multi-year period, I bought way too many (way too many -- I have enough to last about 30 years at my current pace) smokes than my smoking frequency warranted. I ziploc them to slow down their aging because they would otherwise expire before I enjoy them. I have found that, in addition to slowing down the aging process, and not to parrot MRN, the bagged smokes do age "more gracefully." I just finished a Partagas 8-9-8 from '98 that is very rich, full and balanced, and still has plenty of legs to stick around. Earlier this week, I had a Partagas Tres Petit Corona from '98 that is still closed (the box I have from '97 is even more closed, but I think that's due in part to '97 smokes being, in my experience, especially robust and powerful).

My aging horizon is quite long -- I don't even think about smoking a cigar (at least not a Cuban) unless it's got 7+ years on it. I have probably 25 boxes that are 10 years old or older. My preferences are based on my palate and unique circumstances. Others in different circumstances will act differently.

My hope is that, in addition to having beautifiully aged smokes (I keep my walk-in at 62/62), I may have the opportunity to sell some of these smokes in the future. That isn't why I bought them (except maybe the 3rd and 4th boxes of Ramon Allones 8-9-8s), but I view it as an added bonus.

Sounds like an amazing collection. I admire your restraint.

[Colt45]

I ziploc all my smokes.

I'm surely not against it - I don't because for me it's impractical. It simply seems to be a way to prolong the inevitable. I understand that

there are various reasons to bag. As for aging more "gracefully", I don't discount it, but I'm not sure I buy into it fully.

With controlled conditions such as yours, I'd have to believe that your cigars would age nicely bagged or not. And how can we be sure that

that '98 898 would not have been just as, or even more flavorful having been aged unbagged?

[Colt45]

Sounds like an amazing collection. I admire your restraint.

Chen, have a look here:

Link

and here (unfortunately, pics are missing):

Link

[anacostiakat]

I don't do this. I find it impractical for me.

I do on occasion keep dated ziplocked bags of bunches of singles but that is really only to segregate them by purchase date.

[rallones]

I'm surely not against it - I don't because for me it's impractical. It simply seems to be a way to prolong the inevitable. I understand that there are various reasons to bag. As for aging more "gracefully", I don't discount it, but I'm not sure I buy into it fully.

I wouldn't stake my life on it, but I think it's more probable than not.

With controlled conditions such as yours, I'd have to believe that your cigars would age nicely bagged or not. And how can we be sure that that '98 898 would not have been just as, or even more flavorful having been aged unbagged?

We can't for sure -- aren't the mysteries part of what makes this hobby so much fun? I will say that, before I bagged everything, the aroma of cigars when I walked into the closet was very strong. Now, it's nearly imperceptible.

[Trevor2118]

Ziplocs are made from polyethylene and are considered pretty moisture permeable. Of course the thicker the bag, the slower the process.

What do you see, Trevor, that is suggesting to you that they need to transpire? Are you seeing condensation without the hole? If you are, then the box is not properly or fully equilibrated to the cabinet environment prior to putting it in the ziploc. So, while your cabinet may be stable, the incoming cigar may have to give up substantial quantities of moisture to get to 61/65. I say this because almost all shipping retailers I've encountered send their cigars significantly more moist that I'd prefer.

Wilkey

Hi Wilkey,

I use the 0.2 mil thick bags. I decided on a vent to ensure total moisture balance, even though I usually store the cigars in the open (in controlled conditions) before I bag them. The singles (that I am building up for the photographic collection...therefore long-term storage) are then placed in small cedar humidors (one humidor for each brand) which are kept in the controlled room.

Singles for smoking I keep in a larger (600 count) humidor, some bagged others not, kept in the same room. Boxes I just keep on open shelfs (I have too much space to pack them tightly....or alternatively....too few cigars )

I have not had a problem with mold in zip-locks. I did find mold in a single cigar that was in a non poly archive quality (film negative) sleeve. The mold was in the foot of the cigar at the open end.....this may have been contaminated before I received it.

Regarding mold, I have recently found mold in three tube singles that I obtained (one very bad), which concerned me so much that I removed the cigars from all my Tubos (and keep the tubes separate to the cigars).

This mold in Tubos and a bit of an experiment I did was why I decided on a vent hole. What I did was fill a zip lock with water and measure the weight loss over several weeks........it was zero. Based on your comments I need to do a longer test and do a bit of googling over the weekend.

I would love some more feedback on this, because I am not 100% convinced about the need for the vent....but compared to open ended sleaves, it had to be better system.

Trevor

[Ginseng]

Hi Wilkey,

I use the 0.2 mil thick bags. What I did was fill a zip lock with water and measure the weight loss over several weeks........it was zero.

Trevor

Trevor,

Water in the vapor form is quite a bit more mobile through the plastic than liquid water. I'm not surprised you're seeing little to no loss in the time frame you mentioned with a bag of water. In any case, it is not water in its bulk (liquid) form that is moving about inside the bag, but water vapor. When you go Googling, the specific figure you're looking for is MVTR (moisture vapor transmission rate). BTW, LDPE film 200 microns thick has an MVTR of 0.4 grams per day per 1 meter of contact area at 20C.

Wilkey