RA Celestiales Fino STA JUN 09

[PigFish]

What excuses? We called it as we saw it?

I can only reference back to what I have had before. I haven't had a fresh cigar like this since the early to mid 90's where a 3 month old cigar was in the main untouchable and untouchable for several years. Many if not the majority of those went onto becoming very very good/great cigars.

I hope we were clear in the review. If you are looking for a post 06 cigar with post 06 characteristics to enjoy now ...DON'T BUY IT!!!

I have no doubt the blend was intentional. Keep in mind it is not a mass market HSA production. It is a blend approved by PCC (David Tang I suspect) so keep in mind the Tang Monarch etal which also took years to find their feet.

Will it become a great cigar? I have no idea but I am punting that it has every opportunity to do so . Why? Because it shows underhanded power and spice but not the normal characteristics of youth (ammonia).

We will resample in 6 months and again a year and follow its progression.

The Regional Release Program is designed to push the envelope. Distributors have the opportunity to have a play and to back it with their own money. If they want a lay down cigar then let them do it. No one is under compulsion to purchase. The distributors set the price and take the risk. For every one person who wants a smoke good now cigar there will be one who is prepared for a little magic/X Factor to evolve wth time. The last thing we need is a RASS in a Celestiales Finos. We already have a RASS!

As a Habanos Lover what I want is diversity, what I want is a little controversy, what I want is a point of difference. To me a question mark on a cigar that has substance is not a negative but an intriguing journey of discovery. I will not stop enjoying my 08 Mag 46 or BBF or HDM Epi .....but in the back of my mind I will be wondering what the hell those mongrel RACF are doing

I think that this is a very compelling argument... and right on the money. I still contend that too much nicotine is redolent of improperly fermented tobacco. What part of the filler leaf contains the nicotine is speculation. Whether these cigars are mistake or by design is also speculation! You could speculate that the reviewer is a "*****" if you want and just can't take it, or that he is 'HeMan' and the cigar will make a lesser man vomit! The next shipment of boxes could be bland and insipid; welcome to Cuban cigars! BUT... if the stars align and someone did something right... for once, this could be an extraordinary cigar.

I don't think that marque characteristics exist any more, beyond the band on the cigar that is, but that can be argued elsewhere.

Rob, Smithy were the cigars robust in flavor as well as nicotine? Perhaps Smithy answered that with his balance question but I would like to be sure. If the cigar is robust in flavor, and no I have not smoked one so I am speculating as well, then I think I would have to assess the cigar the same as our Ozbourne friends. Perhaps the nicotine is a negative today, but with a robust constitution the cigar will be one to be enjoyed over the years.

For the record I believe that the EL program is responsible for some very poor performing and corresponding low valued Cuban cigars. Value to me is a ratio of cost to performance, with an emphasis on performance. Based on what I have read here I think this cigar has got a fighting chance. The cigar, nicotine and all, if robust in character has the potential to be a real winner. It may also never evolve and be a waste of your money! Those are the chances we take.

But what do you want? Even though this cigar still represents more that what I typically pay for a cigar, the price point, the vitola and now the blending has got me thinking about my prejudice towards EL's, at least this EL. I won't reverse my opinion about them overnight... their track record stinks! Every journey requires a first step and presenting a sub-fifty ring, figurado with some brash panache is a good move. A move that stirs a man set in his ways is a good thing. It also proves that wise man tastes his super before he salts it!!! -Piggy

[PigFish]

So let me ask you and the membership this: Let's say that in 2015 or so, the general consensus is that these are good / very good cigars.

Would it bother anyone if they were unlike any other Ramon Allones cigar ever produced - not really representative of what we might feel

the marque to be? Or might we celebrate that difference.

If Ramon Allones was a privately owned, stand alone company would we be more apt to accept that each size within the portfolio had it's own

distinct profile? I know that some or all of this might sound like it's coming out of left field, but I think I might be coming around to the thought

that I'd rather see a cigar which is "pushing the boundaries" simply banded as the PCC Celestiales Finos.

Ross I have been of the mindset that there are no brand characteristics for a long time now. Like many defenders of the faith I too look for them; I have a desire to find them, reference them and talk of them when given the opportunity. I don't believe however that they truly exist anymore. Cubatabaco is a nationalized company. Many of the brands names that they own were stolen from families and companies that fled the revolution; a political and legal question now, not really one of the cigars themselves. Left or right, communist or capitalist, the Cuban cigar knows nothing of politics and legalities, it is still uniquely its own entity and can only be described as a Cuban cigar!

Back to your main question, I like it by the way, it is subject enough for its own thread; I judge each cigar by its own merits. I don't expect a Cohiba to be better because it costs more. I don't expect a 50 ring to be more robust because it has more tobacco. I don't expect that a shiny box represents that the cigars that it contains are better or worst than the ones in cardboard. You see I know Cuban cigars!

Why do you think I like Rafael Gonzalez cigars? I don't give a rat's ass about the box or the line for that matter. I found some cigars from the right years, in the right sizes that taste great... that's the gist of it! They could be Paratagas, or Bolivars... I don't give a **** as long as they taste good. Take the bands off them for all I care... they taste good!

I don't care if they taste like Ramone Allones! What does Ramon Allones taste like anyway? Most of us, when we like a cigar say, "That is what a Ramon Allones is supposed to taste like," and I think that we may all be right and equally wrong. Why? Because Ramon Allones are supposed to taste good that is why, but none of us know what a RA from the original company is supposed to taste like. Good is what describes the Cuban cigar. Good is sometimes complex and others monotonic. Good changes by the cigar and by the person, each defining good for themselves. My good, my Ramon Allones taste may be your Partagas and visa versa.

I read the press descriptions, what some vendors use as headers to describe cigar characteristics. Some of those headers even tell you what factory the cigars are rolled at. The fraud starts there. What band is on it means nothing to me. -Piggy

[Ginseng]

I still contend that too much nicotine is redolent of improperly fermented tobacco. What part of the filler leaf contains the nicotine is speculation.

Piggy,

That is without question. The process of fermentation is, at its core, the process of reducing the nicotine level and converting it into a form that won't make you seriously ill or kill you. All leaves contain nicotine, of course. The question that might be raised here is was this intentional or inadvertent. Was it by design or accident? Was it simply a case of walking too close to the edge and teetering over?

Wilkey

[Jimmy2]

I will chime in when i get some singles to sample these should be good right out of the box.I think maybe in 6 months you will see a big differance.The majority of Cigars smokers around the world can care less about aging a cigar they want something to smoke now.

Also with the economy the way it is alot of people will not shell out $$$ for a box that will be ready many years later.And i am talking about real cigar smokers who smoke 3 to 6 cigars a day not people who baby their cigars like their kids.People like me go through many boxes a month well use to as the economy has stopped my smoking habits for a sometime.But when i do buy a box every now and than i am very careful on picking something thats great out of the box.

I have been waiting for these for sometime and have high hopes on them hope when i get some samples they are to my liking so i can go ahead and get some boxes..

[bassman]

My box just arrived & they do look nice. VERY tempted to fire one up right now, but I'll be a good boy & let them settle.

[greenpimp]

I am waiting for my box. Some of my favorite cigars are Partagas Lonsdales and coronas, Punch SS#1 and 2, Bolivar CEs. Anyone ever smoke a Partagas Lonsdale or a Punch SS#2 with just 2 months box age? Damn guys "readily consumable" has a price. Part of that price is the list of cigars I just mentioned that need some time to settle down, almost all of which have been discontinued.

I look forward to mine in a couple years.

[n2advnture]

EXCELLENT REVIEW ROB! (laughed through about 1/2 of it)

Lets not forget that these were rolled in June of this year. It's way too early IMHO to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on anything.

Anyone who EVER buys boxes and boxes right out the gate knows that it's speculation as to how they may age but does so to ensure that those boxes are aged they way they prefer to age them.

I, for one, can't wait to see how they (and all my cigars) progress over decades as that is the funnest part of the hobby to me (closely followed by meeting those who share a passion for the hobby as well).

~Mark

[bassman]

Absolutely Mark. Plus, buying fresh cigars insurses that you, not some warehouse somewhere, will control the aging process.

[kmax]

Absolutely Mark. Plus, buying fresh cigars insurses that you, not some warehouse somewhere, will control the aging process.

Thats what I like to do as well!

[chrisguinther]

I generally don't get too excited about RE's; however, with the CF format and RA marca, I am looking forward to obtaining these when available again. As with any young cigar, it's not going to be very approachable for some time. I will put these away buried behind the Estupendos in my humidor. I will be patient smoking through several cabinets of RASS in the meantime.

I still say bravo to PCC for resurrecting the format and coming up with a much more reasonable pricepoint. RA is a marca that has undergone many a change over the past seven years. Personally I would like to see some of the old sizes return: 898, PC, and corona. Perhaps this is a step in the right direction.

[Havanaaddict]

Smoked one ROTT not getting strong powered right through it I will try another one tonight!!!

[Jimmy2]

Quote : chrisguinther

As with any young cigar, it's not going to be very approachable for some time

Chris just want to make a point as alot of people are miss informed about cigars in general and alot on other forums.A young cigar should taste good out of the box period they already have time when buying them.Also a cigar box date does not mean they were made that day its just that they were boxed on that day.

Also their is no rule that an aged cigar is better than young its all personal choice to what you like and the flavor it gives.Their is to many wanabe Cigar gurus around the forums that should be teaching cigar smokers to have an opened mind and not thinking one way only.Theirs alot of unstudied or unproven rules going around in the cigar circle that should be brought up Young or Aged its two differant flavor profiles that both have positive sides..

[habanablue]

I have now had 4-5 but have dryboxed the follow up for 2 days. Still a hammer in a velvet glove but richer flavour and more rounded.

If you haven't got the patience for 5 years....walk away

my experience was very different. A velvet glove for mine, but no hammer lurking inside

http://tinyurl.com/nphe7h

[Jimmy2]

Nice review !! As most know cigars should be great out of the box as thats the way they are ment to be this shows alot of hope to everyday smokers.

[Colt45]

my experience was very different. A velvet glove for mine, but no hammer lurking inside

Very interesting Sam. I don't know how this bodes for consistency - perhaps it's just too early to tell.

[Guest rob]

Very interesting Sam. I don't know how this bodes for consistency - perhaps it's just too early to tell.

maybe it bodes to the taste buds of the reviewers...

[aavkk]

my experience was very different. A velvet glove for mine, but no hammer lurking inside

http://tinyurl.com/nphe7h

wow, you couldnt have had a more different experience than Rob and Smithy. Even the flavors they did mention were dark and woody as opposed to sweet and honey like. Im really confused and even more eager to sample from my box. I will wait another week though.

[Havanaaddict]

Smoked one ROTT not getting strong powered right through it I will try another one tonight!!!

Same thing!!!

(Let me start off by saying that I don't smoke to many new cigars I mostly smoke aged cigars with a min, of 8 years on them. So take this for what it is a guy that smokes (4) aged cigars a day reviewing a New release 09 cigar. )

Well I had to smoke one ROTT they looked outstanding!!! They have beautiful wrappers and that O' so cool shape. After the clip it is hard to get much on the pre light draw because of the shape it seems to give off the illusion that the cigar is a tad snug. But as you get into the first inch you find the draw is just fine!!! The first thing I got from the cigar was floral and wood. By the second 3rd still wood not much sweetness or richness there but still not getting much strength either. As I hit the last 3rd really no change to speak of just a solid cigar. I smoked through the cigar in 45 min. Maybe it is just because the cigars just landed this (am) and are still settling in but to me it was just a smooth but not rich, floral, very woody nice smoking cigar nothing great at this point. But I think in a few years it will change into a very nice cigar. To me I would smoke the RACF over a new RASS any day as I think that a young RASS is bittier, green, strong, blah!!!

IMHO

[rallones]

Nice review !! As most know cigars should be great out of the box as thats the way they are ment to be this shows alot of hope to everyday smokers.

Not sure such a definitive pronouncement can be made as to all cigars. To each his own.

[thechenman]

Quote : chrisguinther

As with any young cigar, it's not going to be very approachable for some time

Chris just want to make a point as alot of people are miss informed about cigars in general and alot on other forums.A young cigar should taste good out of the box period they already have time when buying them.Also a cigar box date does not mean they were made that day its just that they were boxed on that day.

Also their is no rule that an aged cigar is better than young its all personal choice to what you like and the flavor it gives.Their is to many wanabe Cigar gurus around the forums that should be teaching cigar smokers to have an opened mind and not thinking one way only.Theirs alot of unstudied or unproven rules going around in the cigar circle that should be brought up Young or Aged its two differant flavor profiles that both have positive sides..

I agree to a degree with Jimmy here. While I know Jimmy enjoys his cigars while they are young and my personal prefernce is a more aged flavor profile...I agree that the cigar should at the very least be approachable when young. If it does not smoke decently when young, IMHO it will not experience much benefit through aging, as not all cigars age well. Young or aged all depends on ones personal preference and palate, everyone needs to determine that for themselves.

[dball]

"...this is something they'd give you on a reality show to see if you could finish it." That's priceless!