I have a question

[Shelby07]

This was actually asked on another forum.

What makes a cigar "complex" (besides the friggin' soil?) Is it because the leaf is different in different parts, is it the effect of the byproducts of the burn or the heat that changes the cigar as it is smoked, or ????...

Thanks

[Jimmy2]

LOL Its all in the soil that produces the tobacco plant that's the answer..

[Shelby07]

HA - How did I know you'd be the first to answer?

[PigFish]

I have a paper somewhere that shows a spectrum analysis of burning tobacco for the purpose of distinguishing Cuban verses non-Cuban tobacco. As I recall the sample size was small but the paper did indicate the differences between the two tobaccos are real and the difference can be proved empirically. If I can find it I will post it. If you wish to put faith in the data, the paper would potentially answer your complexity question as well if you extrapolate that data by linking certain flavors to certain chemicals. The paper did not go in that direction as I recall but it is a reasonable stretch as I see it.

Cigar complexity is selfevedent. I can only speculate that it has many parameters including the tobacco used, the amount of oxygen used, the temperature and completeness of the combustion process as well as chemicals in your mouth, indigenous to your saliva. -P

[semery74]

I have a theory and sorry Jimmy it has little to do with the soil.

Just indulge me for a minute and imagine a post embargo world. With the competition of Ultra Premium Cuban Cigars now flooding the American Market. What will happen to all of these boutique and Familia(Padron | Fuente) cigars? What will happen to 90% of the Dominican and Nicaraguan product? What did you just think? That's right! They will stop selling to those who know a good cigar. There will still be the unsuspecting newby trying to save a buck. The non-Cuban market will have no choice but to consolidate their product lines in to a finer crafted product. I believe that currently most of what we find on shelves here is rushed to market to feed the economic bottomless pit we call America. There are a few exceptions to this thought and they are TOO expensive (Opus & PAMs).

Now, with that said. I do believe that non-Cubans have every possible potential in the world to match the aroma quality of Habanos. You can experience the possibilities in a good Padron and Opus, but they still lack the complexity. Perhaps they suffer from a lack of diversity? Do Cubans have a larger pool of quality tabacco to blend? That question could be answered by people connected to the industry. This leaves the final question on where do these flavor come from and Pigfish was on the right track. I too have read the Composition Comparison of Organic Acid concentrations in Cuban and non-Cuban cigars. The results of that report support a little of what I have to say about Organic Acids.

Organic Acids are the key to all of those wonderful flavors that we so easily recall when we taste and smell. These are formed in nature and in the lab, some of those fancy long name ingredients on the side of your Doritos are synthetic Organic Acids. Larger molecules can be broken down through fermenting. Fermentation is a catalyst that transforms tart and bitter Plant Tannins in to much smaller and pleasing Organic Acids. Acids such as Tartaric, Succinic, Malic, Lactic and Citric all form specific tastes and aromas. By themselves they are distinguishable, but mixed together with time they form complex aromas that we can all relate. Kind of like colors on a canvas mixing them can formulate just about anything.

[Jimmy2]

My Theory is its the soil ..

[smk819]

Jimmy,

I forgot who told me, but they said it was the soil.

[El Presidente]

Organic Acids are the key to all of those wonderful flavors that we so easily recall when we taste and smell. These are formed in nature and in the lab, some of those fancy long name ingredients on the side of your Doritos are synthetic Organic Acids. Larger molecules can be broken down through fermenting. Fermentation is a catalyst that transforms tart and bitter Plant Tannins in to much smaller and pleasing Organic Acids. Acids such as Tartaric, Succinic, Malic, Lactic and Citric all form specific tastes and aromas. By themselves they are distinguishable, but mixed together with time they form complex aromas that we can all relate. Kind of like colors on a canvas mixing them can formulate just about anything.

---------------

It's All About The Economics!

Very clear and concise

[asmith]

The use of the word complex to describe a cigar occurs when those smoking the cigar cannot determine any flavours and don't want to look like they don't know what they are talking about. So this is why you will hear reviewers describing things like this.

"This cigar is a complex robusto, with layers of flavours that just continue to produce wave after wave of intensity and character that linger on the palette, and are inter-dispersed with slight nuances"

In other words "I have know idea what I'm talking about, it tastes like a cigar tastes"

Complex - solved!

[Jimmy2]

If there is no Cuban soil you would not have a complex Cuban cigar period.Cuban cigars are the most complex in the world .And the one thing no other country has is Cuban soil so that pretty much sums it up .

It all starts from the soil..

[semery74]

If there is no Cuban soil you would not have a complex Cuban cigar period.Cuban cigars are the most complex in the world .And the one thing no other country has is Cuban soil so that pretty much sums it up .

It all starts from the soil..

There certainly would be no Cuban Cigars without Cuban Soil, that I can agree. Critics used to say, that France only produced the best wine, they have been proven wrong. Soil can be manipulated and modified. It's about the level of passion that the group apply to their trade. One person, one family, or one terroir can not be the sole reason a product is outstanding. It takes many people using a timeless method to produce something truely extraordinary.

[PigFish]

...this topic has been soiled! -P

[sounddust]

San Luis, San Juan y Martinez and Saint Alejandro Robaina et al.

[Ginseng]

I have a paper somewhere that shows a spectrum analysis of burning tobacco for the purpose of distinguishing Cuban verses non-Cuban tobacco. As I recall the sample size was small but the paper did indicate the differences between the two tobaccos are real and the difference can be proved empirically. If I can find it I will post it. If you wish to put faith in the data, the paper would potentially answer your complexity question as well if you extrapolate that data by linking certain flavors to certain chemicals. The paper did not go in that direction as I recall but it is a reasonable stretch as I see it.

Cigar complexity is selfevedent. I can only speculate that it has many parameters including the tobacco used, the amount of oxygen used, the temperature and completeness of the combustion process as well as chemicals in your mouth, indigenous to your saliva. -P

That would be the Ng, et al., 2001 paper. Here's my post discussing that paper.

It is quite a leap going from the findings of the paper as stated to any conclusions about flavor and complexity. The fundamental issue with a direct extrapolation is that unlike with wine, where the composition is imbibed and sensed as is, in cigars, the material must be combusted to deliver the flavor package. So to some degree, it's some combination of the leaf composition and the combustion products (which themselves are a consequence of the burn conditions such as humidity, and rate and depth of draw.

Wilkey

[Shelby07]

Apparently I used the term "complex" incorrectly. I was referring to the fact that the flavors of a CC seems to change more so than NC's, which seem to keep pretty much the same flavors from start to finish (except they seem to get hotter.) What is it that makes this so?

[Colt45]

Apparently I used the term "complex" incorrectly. I was referring to the fact that the flavors of a CC seems to change more so than NC's, which seem to keep pretty much the same flavors from start to finish (except they seem to get hotter.) What is it that makes this so?

For me, that's the correct use of the term complexity. I think that along with what members have already mentioned, it's everything involved.

The seeds, the earth, the sun. How the wind blows, how the dew forms. How the tobacco is handled, and on and on. Cuban cigars are unique because Cuba is unique - a number of micro climates within a larger micro climate that is different than the others around it.

[hoyopr]

I wonder if some credit could be given to those have the job of blending for the rollers, and those that select the apropriate bales for specific marcas?