Port

[sounddust]

I was recently very impressed by a glass or 4 of vintage port, which name was promptly forgotten the following morning. As such, I would like to know what kinds of vintage port would be good for someone who has no idea about the stuff? Thanks in advance.

[chuck1rar]

My all time fav is Great Grand Father port by Penfolds.

But I guess would not be readily available in the US..

At about $300 a bottle always pick one up on the way out of Aust or at Dan Murphys.

Having said that have only tasted port at some bars which sell Spanish port and IMHO nowhere near the same quality.

Did a tour of some wineries in Sth Aust a few years back and found some fine examples but unfortunately not a product that is found at the local bottleshop often.

[bassman]

My all time fav is Great Grand Father port by Penfolds.

But I guess would not be readily available in the US..

At about $300 a bottle always pick one up on the way out of Aust or at Dan Murphys.

Having said that have only tasted port at some bars which sell Spanish port and IMHO nowhere near the same quality.

Did a tour of some wineries in Sth Aust a few years back and found some fine examples but unfortunately not a product that is found at the local bottleshop often.

Never had the GGF, but Penfold's Grandfather Port was absolutely delicious. As for Portugese Porto, Grahams is possibly the sweetest style. Taylor is excellent & not quite as sweet. Dow's is one of my favorites & also not as sweet as the Grahams

[tsolomon]

I haven't tried many vintage ports, but a nice 10 year old Tawny Port by Taylor Fladgate or Fonseca goes real well with a cigar. The tawnys or not as sweet and I prefer the Fonseca over the Taylor.

[Ken Gargett]

I was recently very impressed by a glass or 4 of vintage port, which name was promptly forgotten the following morning. As such, I would like to know what kinds of vintage port would be good for someone who has no idea about the stuff? Thanks in advance.

as wonderful as the great grandfather is - and even better is the seppeltsfield centenary port - the 1908 recently released ($1000/half bottle) - they are tawnies, not vintages.

aussie tawnies tend to be sweeter than the portuguese equivalents.

lot depends on your budget but if chasing serious vintage ports, portugal is head and shoulders above everything and one of the world's great wine styles. dows, grahams, taylors, fonseca, quinta do noval, crasto, ferriera, smith woodhouse, warres and a few others all superb. you probably need to consider vintages more than makers at this stage if going for true VP's. you might still find a few 77's around - a great year, or even 63's (70 another top year but drink up). 80, 82, 83, 85 all good but not the same class as the earlier ones (the makers do not make a vintage port every year - only in those they declare - and even then, one maker might declare a year and another might not so in those early 80's, most houses would have declared only onje, perhaps two of the years). 91 and 92 not bad but the next top years were 94 and 97. and then, and these are most likely what you might find, 2000 and 2003. i believe that the 07s are very good and just coming in the market. americans tend to drin k their ports younger than poms and aussies but young port can be delicous, though if you can get a mature one, or age it yourself, they can be glorious.

if you have a list from yo0ur local, tawnies or VP's, email it through and i'm happy to have a squizz.

[sounddust]

Thanks guys. I can't afford to spend a box of Siglo VIs right now on a bottle of goodness that I probably won't appreciate to the hilt. Nonetheless, I will probably narrow down my search to vintages from Portugal. Ken, thanks for your offer; I will see what I can discover at my local's.

[jquest63]

Try a Tawny Port - thats a relatively inexpensive into to port- Trafford Seppelt Barrosa Valley Tawny is great value for the money $20

[Colt45]

I can't afford to spend a box of Siglo VIs right now on a bottle of goodness that I probably won't appreciate to the hilt. Nonetheless, I will probably narrow down my search to vintages from Portugal. Ken, thanks for your offer; I will see what I can discover at my local's.

I agree that if you are just getting into it, a regular tawny is a great way to go. I like Sandeman's and Presidential at @ $12 a bottle, or

move up to the reserve for around $20.

though if you can get a mature one, or age it yourself, they can be glorious.

KG, I thought that once bottled, port does not really age?

[Ken Gargett]

KG, I thought that once bottled, port does not really age?

tawnies don't but vintage port definitely does.

[sounddust]

KG, I thought that once bottled, port does not really age?

tawnies don't but vintage port definitely does.

Interesting...may I know why is that so?

[tsolomon]

Another good tawny port is Chateau Reynella Old Cave from Australia. It's a 500 ml bottle which sells for $15-$19 around here.

[Ken Gargett]

Interesting...may I know why is that so?

i'm sure a scientist could explain it better than i can but basically tawnies have already had a long time in oak before being bottled and got where they are going whereas vintages are bottled very young - i think i mentioned we are just starting to see the 07s - and so have a long way to go. a tawny of two years age would be a raw, harsh thing. good tawnies have material in them that could be 50 or 60 years old already or even older. tawnies also blend across a number of vintages whereas a vintage is simply that, the one vintage.

[sounddust]

i'm sure a scientist could explain it better than i can but basically tawnies have already had a long time in oak before being bottled and got where they are going whereas vintages are bottled very young - i think i mentioned we are just starting to see the 07s - and so have a long way to go. a tawny of two years age would be a raw, harsh thing. good tawnies have material in them that could be 50 or 60 years old already or even older. tawnies also blend across a number of vintages whereas a vintage is simply that, the one vintage.

I see. Would it be similar to how a Padron which tobacco has already been aged for 3-5 years would probably taste "better" off the bat than an Cuban Hupmann with less than a year on it? However, the Hupmann would most probably taste far better in 5-10 years time while the Padron would probably still taste the same or worse. I would think it's the opportunity for the different varieties of raw tobacco to blend their flavors over time that creates the special taste, not when the tobacco is aged by themselves, before being rolled. So if most of the fine flavors in tobacco is produced during the 1st 5 years, a Cuban cigar would have better flavors to blend with. Thus, creating a better end product.

I've no idea if I understood what I just wrote.

[Ken Gargett]

I see. Would it be similar to how a Padron which tobacco has already been aged for 3-5 years would probably taste "better" off the bat than an Cuban Hupmann with less than a year on it? However, the Hupmann would most probably taste far better in 5-10 years time while the Padron would probably still taste the same or worse. I would think it's the opportunity for the different varieties of raw tobacco to blend their flavors over time that creates the special taste, not when the tobacco is aged by themselves, before being rolled. So if most of the fine flavors in tobacco is produced during the 1st 5 years, a Cuban cigar would have better flavors to blend with. Thus, creating a better end product.

I've no idea if I understood what I just wrote.

i think that there is probably something in that. although both tawnis and vintage are 'ports', they really are quite different. they get lumped as usually the same makers and both are styles of wine which have fortifying spirit added. tawnies are very much the blended product, though you can get 'vintage tawnies' (colheitas) but they are not common. talking with james godfrey of seppeltsfield last week, who is one of the world's gurus on fortifieds and he was saying that it is not simply a matter of the oldest material for tawnies - he mentioned that a fifty year old tawny might look old and tired but by blending in some younger material, he can turn a tired fifty year old (even though most people think the older the material the better) into a fresher and terrific 40 year old.

but the key for both wine and cigars, for me, is balance. even if a vintage port seems hard to approach as a young wine, if all in place then it should turn into something worthwhile.

[sounddust]

talking with james godfrey of seppeltsfield last week, who is one of the world's gurus on fortifieds and he was saying that it is not simply a matter of the oldest material for tawnies - he mentioned that a fifty year old tawny might look old and tired but by blending in some younger material, he can turn a tired fifty year old (even though most people think the older the material the better) into a fresher and terrific 40 year old.

Now that's something of interest. Thanks for your insight Ken.

[bigfunkyg]

Never had the GGF, but Penfold's Grandfather Port was absolutely delicious. As for Portugese Porto, Grahams is possibly the sweetest style. Taylor is excellent & not quite as sweet. Dow's is one of my favorites & also not as sweet as the Grahams

Wow, I had no idea there was a Great Grandfather. I have had Grandfather many times and it is my favorite.

Grahams is usually good. Warres Otima 20 was quite nice as well and was reasonably priced.

[Stalebread]

I'm working on a bottle of Ramos Pinto 20 Year Old Tawny. I don't have enough experience to make comparisons but I suspect it's on the sweet side, comparatively speaking.

[Ken Gargett]

thought this might be of interest re port declarations. interesting cmment at the end re 1931, given that almost none of the shippers did declare '31.

and there are strong rumours that many will declare 08, which would really put pressure on the style - will it be able to sll in a recession?

the author might occasionally cop a bagging here but i know that he is nhighly respected by the portuguese.

<H1 class=title>Port Winemakers Declare 2007 Vintage</H1><H2 class=subtitle>A cool summer and sunny fall produced the Douro's first declared vintage since 2003</H2><H5 class=postdate>James Suckling</H5><H5 class=postdate>Posted: Tuesday, April 28, 2009</H5>The Port industry has announced its biggest Vintage Port declaration ever with close to 50 different wines approved, or in the process of being approved, by the Port wine institute. The 2007 Vintage Ports will be bottled in a few months, but futures are currently going on sale as each house sets its prices. They should be shipped to the wine trade in the fall.

"These are great wines and it is always difficult to compare them to previous years as we believe that each year has its own character," said Adrian Bridge, head of the Taylor Fladgate, Fonseca and Croft houses. "For us, the wines have the noses of the 1992s and are probably in the style of the 1966."

Paul Symington of the Symington Port Group, which owns such illustrious names as W&J Graham, Dow and Warre, added, "The 2007s have some of 1994's voluptuous fruit, but there is a more fine acidity and less sweetness than the 1994s. I particularly like their racy tannins."

I will be tasting more than four dozen samples of the fledging Vintage Ports in blind tastings this week in Porto, Portugal. The results will be reported on Winespectator.com soon and in an upcoming issue. I will also be blogging from Portugal.

Vintage Ports make up a small part of Port production, but they are the most prestigious wines the houses make, the bedrock of their reputation. The wines are made similar to other Ports, fortified with spirits to arrest fermentation and preserve residual sugar. Select lots are set aside and aged for up to two years in large vats. Each house decides on its own whether to declare a vintage. In a year like 2007, most do.

The last "declared" vintage for Port was 2003. It sold mostly in the United States and the United Kingdom. Vintage Port prices remain soft with most prices for old vintages seldom increasing in value, especially compared to top table wines. On average, a Port vintage is declared every three to four years with the last six including 2003, 2000, 1997, 1994, 1992 and 1991.

The grapegrowing season in Portugal's Douro Valley in 2007 was cool most of the summer according to Port makers. But very warm and sunny weather in September ripened the grapes to near perfection. They were picked with high sugars as well as strong acidities and ripe tannins.

"From a quality point of view, 2007 was a great year in Portugal for both Port and [table] wines," said Johnny Graham, head of Churchill Port. "We had an Indian summer that went on until late October and made up for the cooler weather in August. Grapes were harvested later than usual and the wines have masses of ripe fruit but also good acidity."

Producers said that they planned to sell their young Ports very close to current prices for 2003 Vintage Ports, meaning top names would be between $65 and $85 a bottle. Many said that they wanted to be "careful and sensible" with their pricing.

"We do not expect to sell a lot, but we intend to offer and bottle really quite small quantities," said Symington. Most shippers made between 10 and 20 percent less in 2007 compared to 2003. "It is a bit of a rerun of the 1931; mad to declare in the midst of a recession like this, but mad not to bottle such a lovely wine."

[Ken Gargett]

re the 2008s

Some Port estates may declare again in 2008, it has emerged.

Charles Symington, managing director of Symington Family Estates which owns Dow's, Warre's and Graham's, said the quality of the 2008 vintage put the 2007 declaration into doubt at the end of last year.

'In November and December we were thinking, should we declare the 2007s or the 2008s? By January we had decided to opt for the 2007s. Some may declare in 2008,' he said.

Christian Seely, managing director of AXA Millesimes, owner of Quinta do Noval said he 'would not rule out the possibility of us declaring the 2008'. Noval declared 2007 two weeks ago.

Retail prices of the 2007 vintage look likely to be around 10% higher than the last general vintage declaration in 2003.

However, many producers are dropping their ex-cellars price to offset the strength of the euro. Seely added: 'It's painful to have such a good wine and reduce its price in euros.'

Symington said: 'We are putting our euro price down 10%. Inevitably the price will increase because of the pound but it also depends on the margins of the retailers.'

[FireDigger]

Ken, thanks for the information on Ports. I know nothing about it, but after reading this thread, I decided to get a bottle. One thing I noticed is that some VPs state 2003, but bottled in 2007 or 2008. Does that sound right? Are all vintages bottled at a later date? Thanks ahead of time for your insight.

[Stalebread]

Ken, thanks for the information on Ports. I know nothing about it, but after reading this thread, I decided to get a bottle. One thing I noticed is that some VPs state 2003, but bottled in 2007 or 2008. Does that sound right? Are all vintages bottled at a later date? Thanks ahead of time for your insight.

Ken can confirm or deny this but I gathered from some of his posts above (and from reading elsewhere) that VP spends from two to four years in the cask and is then bottled where it will continue to age. Tawney Port, on the other hand, spends much more time in the cask, like maybe ten years or more before it is bottled where it will not continue to age. LBV is in the middle and spends from four to six years in the cask before bottling. LBV is not considered as high a quality as vintage but will still age in the bottle.

Is this summary anywhere close to being right, Ken?

[Stalebread]

This is an excellent and timely thread as I'm heading to Lisbon in ten days or so. I am just beginning to understand what I might be looking at. Thanks to all.

[tsolomon]

Had a bottle of Warre's Optima 10 year old tawny Saturday night. It was very good, smooth and slightly sweet, we drank the whole 500 ml bottle at one sitting.

[Ken Gargett]

Ken can confirm or deny this but I gathered from some of his posts above (and from reading elsewhere) that VP spends from two to four years in the cask and is then bottled where it will continue to age. Tawney Port, on the other hand, spends much more time in the cask, like maybe ten years or more before it is bottled where it will not continue to age. LBV is in the middle and spends from four to six years in the cask before bottling. LBV is not considered as high a quality as vintage but will still age in the bottle.

Is this summary anywhere close to being right, Ken?

very close. vintage is probably around two years in the barrel - they will be larger older barrels, not the new oak style ones we often see these days. ditto the tawnies and LBV's. tawnies could be anywhere from a few years to a century, though that is rare. LBV tends to around the five to six mark - i think that there are regulations governing the exact times. and they will probably mature to a degree in bottle, for a few years, whereas vintage port can go decades.

[FireDigger]

Got it, stale and Ken. Thanks again!