Cuban cigar lovers are seriously misgiuded...

[Van55]

Did you check out the commentary? All but one agreed with his myopic statement.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=77...225590601810853

Yesterday I composed and submitted for publication a reply to his blog.

I can't remember what I typed verbatim, but it went something like this.

"The vast majority of cigar smokers world wide consider Cuban cigars the benchmark against which other cigars are judged. Cuban cigars dominate the world market everywhere but the USA, where they are contraband. To label as "misguided" the majority of cigar smokers is, in itself, misguided."

The blogger reserves the right to preview all attempted responses to him and they are posted or not at the blogger's discretion. I guess he doesn't think my thoughts are worthy of publishing.

[El Presidente]

Magste I take issue with much of what you say but in a spirit of open discussion.

1. I can't tell you how many times I and the "majority" here have said that there are very good NC's around. Don't take a minority position and take it as reflecting the majority.

2. I don't know a Castro supporter on the forum. I don't know anywone who does not sympathise with those who have lost their livelihoods in Cuba in whatever industry they plied their trade. My personal views are well known.

3. I take as much offence to the launch of "Vegas Robaina" and to a lesser extent San Cristobal in the US. How about 'Trinidad"

4. The main reason Cuban cigars have 80% of the non US market is not because they are "better" - whatever that means - but because Castro could continue to export cigars under their old brand names, using the same distribution channels as before the revolution, thus keeping the market dominance that Cuban cigars already had.

Really? Nothing has to do with the fuller flavour? Nothing has to do with the Terroir? People in the rest of the world are idiots? We all purchase due to distribution channels of 50 years ago? Utility, satisfaction...plays no part? Do you purposely devalue the experiences of everyone here?

5. I pay homage to many NC's . I respect several of the makers. I know them. I also know many of the Cuban Vegueros. I have bagged plenty of NC's and Cubans as have many of us.

6. I must agree that the leading NC producers achieve a much higher product quality and blend consistency that Cuba normally does. You never (apart from the recent growing pain of Pepin Garcia's operations) find discussions in the NC boards around this box code being good, this code being bad, this year the cigar tasting like this, next year tasting like that, half the box being plugged, etc. A $4 NC cigar from the larger producers is generally more consistent in all areas than a $15 cigar from Cuba.

Have we not been critical of Cuban construction? Have we not over many years here pushed for improvement? Have we not agreed that they have made giant strides in doing so?

I agree with your statement that in the main many NC's have much higher consistency. However (excluding some well known people I respect), whenever I smoke a perfectly constructed gorgeous looking NC which leaves me wanting.....I always think of a favourite saying:

"ONLY THE MEDIOCRE ARE ALWAYS AT THEIR BEST. "

Give me flaws but give me greatness or the promise of which may be to come.

[anacostiakat]

I am in agreement with Rob in his response.

Also in the sake of open discussion I believe it is completely subjective as to what an individual likes. I smoke both depending on my mood. Because it is what I happen to like and can afford. It is true while there are good (and bad) non-cuban and cuban cigars (overpriced and not overpriced as well) it boils down to what you like.

Furthermore if someone takes an agressive stand, pro or con that is their opinion. They are entitled to it.

I dont really get caught up in the excuses or arguments for this or that. I am all about the solution. The solution for me is smoking good cigars that I like.

[Jimmy2]

Fuentes never fled CUBA I am sick of hearing this from the cigar community they left on there own (early 1900's) it had nothing to do with CASTRO. Carlito is always crying but its not because his family was kicked out of Cuba its all the money his making from his over priced crap.

As for others that so called fled a lot of them had big ties to Batista who was just as bad as Castro .The ones that fled Cuba or were told to leave are not all innocent as they know there time was up when Batista fled as they know he was the one who caused the Revolution.And they had ties to him and his ruthless government who also terrorized the people of Cuba.

Also Cubans are better not to say that NC are bad but they are not in the same caliber as Cubans I think I Proved it to some Degree.

This is Cuban Cigar site and most here don't care to hear about NC their are plenty of FORUMS for NC out there that's what makes this one so special and informative .

Maybe Rob can make a NC room for you gents who still have some interest in them still .

[Colt45]

(especially not in this forum, with its many fanatic "Cubans are best - crap is the rest" members)

This point I'd have to disagree with. While I feel we have a few members who are curtly dismissive of NCs, I think that most of the discussions

(and there have been quite a few lately) have been respectful, with members searching for what makes the differences, and not so much these

are better than those. Quite a few members still smoke both.

As for not making a distinction between the two, while I understand that in the broader sense, in reality I don't see how you cannot. Are there not

distinctions between french and california cabernet? Italian barolo and spanish tempranillo, etc? Certainly they can all be great wines, but surely

there are distinct differences.

As Jimmy has pointed out, this is a Cuban cigar forum, but personally, when they are discussed I'd prefer to see the NC discussions kept in the

general forum. I feel adding a separate NC forum would be another step in making FOH like other forums.

[Jimmy2]

How about we keep NC talk to PM's...

[sliver54]

As Jimmy has pointed out, this is a Cuban cigar forum, but personally, when they are discussed I'd prefer to see the NC discussions kept in the

general forum. I feel adding a separate NC forum would be another step in making FOH like other forums.

+1

[Colt45]

And at the risk of kicking the flogged pony when he's down.........

I understand that not all producers do this, but how many ads, articles, and interviews have we read where NCs are described as "cuban-esque", or

having 'that cuban taste". Cigars made with cuban seed tobacco. Cigars with Cuba or Havana in the name? Is it simply marketing preying on the

uninitiated? Marketing which considers us all less than enlightened?

Or are some of these producers so unsure of themselves and what they're doing that they have to fall back on these terms - chasing the dragon -

hoping to produce something they really cannot......

I'm in the camp which feels that many NCs equal or surpass CCs in overall consistent quality of construction. I believe they take great care and

pride in how they handle tobacco and in what they produce. I'd much rather hear a producer say "this is the best of Honduras". Or Nicaragua.

Or the Dominican - tell me this. Tell me you have worked and are working on using the best seeds and strains of tobacco for the given climate

conditions. Now I'm interested.

Jimmy, personally, I'd rather not see the forum go the way of "open NC discussion", but I do feel these discussions are beneficial to us all when

properly conducted. And, if the forum ends up evolving in that manner, I'd like to think I'd be able to roll with it.

[Jimmy2]

Agreed Colt i was just trying to get anything NC out of the threads that i read so we could put them in a room i would never visit.

[anacostiakat]

Agreed Colt i was just trying to get anything NC out of the threads that i read so we could put them in a room i would never visit.

[Shelby07]

Agreed Colt i was just trying to get anything NC out of the threads that i read so we could put them in a room i would never visit.

I've been sitting here trying to figure out if that would make the glass half empty or the glass half full...

[Chaki]

I am with Jimmy on this one.

Why do (some) NC smokers feel the need to educate, explain, prove anything to us CC smokers?

How would you feel if you are in a football (American type) forum because you are interested in discussing the Bears v. Giants and some guys keep coming and telling you that in fact rugby is better, it was somehow the original form of the game, rugby players do not wear protection etc…?

The same goes for base-ball/cricket, Nikon/Canon, BMW/Mercedes etc…and I have yet to see a wine forum where people would waste their time trying to explain that Burgundy is better than Bordeaux. It is just a matter of taste.

NCs are consistent? Fantastic! You prefer their construction and taste? Great! But please go discuss that in an NC forum. Maybe I am close-minded but I have made some choices, I have my preferences and taste, and I smoke only CC. Why would it be of any interest to anyone to make me change my mind?

And what is this argument about quality consistency as if it were a good thing in itself? Cigarettes are pretty consistent in quality and taste. A Marlboro tastes the same whether it is bought in Australia or in the US. It is made with machines and contains many chemical additives so as to maintain its “freshness” etc… I am not attracted by this type of quality consistency. I recognize that others will find it of paramount importance in their cigar smoking experience and I understand why they might prefer NC for instance.

Bordeaux wine lovers know that 2000 is better than 1998, or that 2005 is better than 2002. Nobody would criticize the consistency. Wine is a natural product that depends a lot on weather conditions in a given year. Tobacco to a large extent is similar. In fact, I like the “game” of comparing different years, different box codes for a given vitola. Choosing a wrapper color, touching (whenever possible) to check for the construction, filling etc. is all part of the CC experience in my opinion.

Anyhow, maybe having separate sections for NC is the solution. This is the case of the CA or Cigar Weekly forums and it seems there are much less of these religious wars going on. This the "Friends of Habanos" forum, not the "Friends of Hondurans or Dominicans", but I am sure Rob in its unending generosity would find some space for a section on NC

[Shelby07]

I am with Jimmy on this one.

Why do (some) NC smokers feel the need to educate, explain, prove anything to us CC smokers?...

I've been a Ford/Shelby performance car guy for most of my life, but it doesn't mean I wont talk to someone or don't want to hear about a Chevy, Chrysler, Ferrari, or even the new Tata from India. When the new Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camaro were announced, there were multiple discussions and pictures all over the Ford and Shelby boards, but it didn't change the main thrust of the board. This is a Cuban cigar board, it's main purpose is to discuss Cuban cigars, and it will always remain so. That's why people come here. An occasional comment about a Padron or a Tatuaje is not going to change that. I've stopped talking about NC's here, not because I think it's inappropriate but because some people here seem to get extremely emotional and even a bit combatant at the mere mention of NC cigars. In fact, I haven't seen a NC discussed in several days, yet the NC bashing continues by a few.

Cuban cigars are wonderful. We all love (or are learning to love) Cuban cigars and no one is going to succeed if they try to educate, explain or prove to anyone here that NC's are better than Cubans. In fact, no one here has ever tried to do that. What HAS been happening is that a few people here seem to have to constantly try to educate, explain or prove that CC's are the only cigar worth smoking and get very emotional if someone else happens to mention that they enjoy a NC cigar.

Guys, it's gettin' old.

Edit: By the way, this thread has wandered a bit... just to be clear, the guy who posted the blog entry that started this thread is still full of crap!

[FlyFishingDude]

I've been a Ford/Shelby performance car guy for most of my life, but it doesn't mean I wont talk to someone or don't want to hear about a Chevy, Chrysler, Ferrari, or even the new Tata from India.

Edit: By the way, this thread has wandered a bit... just to be clear, the guy who posted the blog entry that started this thread is still full of crap!

Your goin to love the new smart car lamborghini, they're calling it the Smamborghini.....

[PigFish]

Reading this thread… what an interesting way to start the weekend.

My buying of Cuban cigars is not about a revolution, human rights, numbers of whales in the Atlantic, most home runs or the distance from the tee to the green. It has no bearing on what autoloader I prefer to shoot or what grain projectile I put in it; it has little to do with to whom I pray to, or who I pray never see again at the shopping mall; it is simply a matter of taste.

Smoke what you want, opine what you want, compare what you want, eat what you want, date what you want… it does not matter to me! It only matters to me if I choose to opine on what you have written. I only ask you to write what you want and stand behind what you write! If your peer group thinks you’re a hero so be it, or perhaps they think you’re a fool. All of us take the same chance every time we opine. I am good with that.

If you want to boast about NC cigars here I don’t give a rat’s posterior! Hell, it is a cigar board. If you wish to call me foolish for buying Cuban cigars… have at it. I really don’t give a ****!!! We all have opinions here and that is the point of this place right; posting opinions?

I don’t what to see political messages when I buy a movie ticket. Frankly I am not much interested in seeing a one company deride another and call it anecdotal either. I am one who boldly states that NC cigars are not to my liking; they taste like ****! There is nothing to argue about if you like them, you can’t prove it to me… I am closed minded. Yes it is a generalization and there is room in the statement for my error. In truth I might actually find a real Rolex online for $50 dollars, or a real Dupont for $8 but I am not going to try by bidding on everyone on eBay. The odds of my success are small and that of my failure is extremely high. That is what I think about NC cigars. The odds are I won’t like them.

What separates me from the blogger on the other site is I have tried the other products and empirical knowledge has forged my opinion, not speculation. The point is it does not matter how we got here. It is in the rationalizing of our tastes that we all choose the wrong road. -Piggy

[Shelby07]

Piggy - I was not referring to anything you posted. I truly enjoy your posts. I'm here to learn about something I know little about. You and many others help me do that. Unfortunately for me, my experience has been mostly limited to NC's, so I use them as a point of reference. My issue was with the points that have been made here that NC's shouldn't be talked about or it should have its own forum or discussions should be limited to PM's. Cuban cigars are different. Definitely! Just like Nics or Hondurans or cigars from other regions. It doesn't matter whether it's the soil or the sun or the rain or horses peeing in the tobacco fields or if someone can tell the difference.

We talk about everything on this forum. from human rights, numbers of whales in the Atlantic, most home runs or the distance from the tee to the green, what autoloader you prefer to shoot or what grain projectile you put in it; as you say, it is not a competition, it is simply a matter of taste. Talking about cars, guns, motorcycles, fishing, hunting, cooking, politics, etc. is not discouraged. It seems that the only subject that a few people try to keep off the board or badger others into not talking about is non Cuban cigars. I just don't get it.

If you or anyone else here took something I wrote as a personal attack I am truly sorry. It wasn't meant to be a personal attack on anyone. It was about a feeling I get on a single point. Every person here, to the man or woman, contributes in a positive way and continues to help me along this journey. Sometimes the written word is interpreted in a way it wasn't meant to be.

[PigFish]

Mark, I hope you don’t mind me calling you Mark, you don’t owe me any apology. I was in no way offended by what you wrote. I don’t offend that easily nor did I think that what you wrote was pointed at me. My post was no more than my opinion and not pointed any “one” but everyone, including me. Furthermore, in many ways I agree with you. The “Watering Hole” appears to me to be an open form. You are right, people post about Wookies to Wombats in that form and none of it bothers me in the slightest! Sometimes it makes interesting reading, other times I just skip it.

I read what I want and opine on what I want and expect no more or no less from others. I am willing to accept others indicating that I am closed minded about NC cigars (without intimating that you inferred that about me). If I don’t wish to read about NC cigars I just stop reading; the same goes for cricket, yacht racing and other items of little or no interest to me. I am far from wanting to ban their discussion, I just take my interests elsewhere.

I do appreciate the time you took to let me know that you were not insulting me. That is a friendly, brotherly gesture and that is truly in my minds eye is what the forum is about; expression without repression! For that I toast to you.

I can't speak for others but I can see them saying that NC comparisons are to a certain extent monotonous. Everyone here is level headed and friendly for the most part and I don't think anyone is out to skin your Mustang as a result of your posting about them. For what it is worth I think our friends are just saying it is time to move on.

Cheers Mate! -Piggy

[Colt45]

..... i smoked an nc today.....

[PigFish]

..... i smoked an nc today.....

Off with his head. -LOL

[Chaki]

We're cool!

[Jimmy2]

Friends of HABANOS

[Colt45]

Off with his head. -LOL

It's just a flesh wound!

[Van55]

The guy has published the critical comments, including two that I submitted.

He even acceded to my points that it's a matter of taste and that calling people "misguided" over their taste preferences is stupid.

[Guest rob]

Well said, Van.