Scientologists: Psychiatrists responsible for the holocaust!

[Ken Gargett]

» You are a quality individual Ken

»

» We missed you today Shrink ;-)

be fair. i would never go as far as one mate (from a very religious family) who actually had cards printed calling himself 'father xxx zzz'. you'd be amazed at the number of girls keen to add a priest to their collection.

he is now a crown prosecutor and proabably locks away people doing similar things. not a fair world.

[Gryphon]

» Scientology is a good thing and Psychiatry should be banished.

»

You complain about people commenting about scientology, but you have no problems saying that Psychiatry should be banished.

How about you show the same respect you are asking for???

[nugget]

» » Scientology is a good thing and Psychiatry should be banished.

» »

»

» You complain about people commenting about scientology, but you have no

» problems saying that Psychiatry should be banished.

»

» How about you show the same respect you are asking for???

Well it should be banished!

And it is not a religion which was my point of debate.

[anacostiakat]

What a beauty of a thread!

[Gryphon]

» » » Scientology is a good thing and Psychiatry should be banished.

» » »

» »

» » You complain about people commenting about scientology, but you have no

» » problems saying that Psychiatry should be banished.

» »

» » How about you show the same respect you are asking for???

»

» Well it should be banished!

»

» And it is not a religion which was my point of debate.

Hitler said all Jews should be destroyed...See my point yet ??

[nugget]

» Hitler said all Jews should be destroyed...See my point yet ??

Hitler had clear intentions to harm others, exactly the same as Psychiatry.

It's just a matter of perspective as to how Psychiatry is doing harm and unfortunately people are blind to it.

[Professor Twain]

Saying that psychiatry should be banned is a bit like saying dentistry or oncology should be banned. Many people do have mental disorders and they need help in some manner. Psychiatry, psychology, and related fields do the best that they can but like any profession they have their limitations.

Not being religious myself, I am always amazed at how people can find points to ridicule in others' religions but not in their own.

Cristopher Hitchens has just written a book about religion, "God is Not Great". I haven't read it but may do so. To get an overview of his views, listen to the first 15 minutes of this debate:

[link]http://www.slate.com/id/2166143/[/link]

[nugget]

I hear you and should be more specific.

I am not opposed to psychology and the related fields, it's just psychiatry.

I don't believe in the drugs they deliver and their methods of inhibiting a mans ability to think for himself by ways of mutilation to put it mildly.

Man should be able to think for himself and not be mentally numbed in a band aid attempt to handle a problem they admit to not having a cure for.

I think psychology can actually do a lot for people and Scientology should lay off. Taking to someone and giving them the tools to handle their problems is the way to do it in my book.

[Ethernut]

OK folks I really have resisted responding to this thread. I do appreciate Prez's remarks on the subject and think "good healthy" discussion is a good thing. Here's my concern, and crap, I'm going to say this out loud a risk of my reputation here but here I go.

If one checks some of the other Cigar forums it's easy to find the pompous abrasive pricks on their forum. Here, it's not that way (atleast not yet). And I'm not looking for it to be that way here. This is truly one of the calmest, funniest places on the web IMHO. That makes me want to do business with Prez.

For me this thread is not about healthy discussion at this point, it's every one against nugget. Nugget, if you'd never responded this would not have happened, further more, if you hadn't been so abrasive with your replys Prez wouldn't have wasted his time creating response replys ripping LRH to shreds.

THE TRUTH IS, NO ONE IS GOING TO CHANGE THIER MIND HERE

This is a truth about adults and one I have had to come to grips with in my adult life. It is impossible for an adult, not matter how crafty, witty, knowledgeable, or clever to change another adults mind if he/she doesn't want them to. We are all very stubborn, and that brings us to our impasse.

This kind of discussion is difficult to keep "healthy" and I think it has passed that point. I'd like to see the thread deleted because it's seriously ruining my calm here. When new folks join this forum, THE LAST THING I WANT THEM TO SEE IS THIS THREAD. Because to tell you the truth, if it'd been here (and more like it) when I started lurking in the forums, I probably would not have joined. It's all not about me, I understand that, but I do not want to see a great thing tainted.

Just what perception do we want others to have of FOTH when they pass by?

Ether

(edited to correct spelling)

[zuma]

» it's seriously ruining my calm here.

let all light up a favourite cigar... puff along calmly... and say: Goose-fraba.... Goose-fraba....

[Colt45]

» Just what perception do we want others to have of FOTH when they pass

» by?

»

This is not the first thread where members have had different opinions, and I'm sure

it won't be the last (nor, in my opinion, should it be). For the most part, they have

remained civil, with few or no personal attacks.

With speaking one's mind comes responsibility. I feel that if we are going to express

our personal beliefs, we should expect, and be willing to respect, varying opinions -

not that we have to agree with each other.

Personally, I think anyone "lurking", who has taken the time to do some reading,

should be able to see the difference. Just my two bits.

[Matthew]

» Personally, I think anyone "lurking", who has taken the time to do some

» reading,

» should be able to see the difference. Just my two bits.

In this lurker's case, you are correct. This is actually a pretty good thread. CNN/HNN is running the reporter's clip over and over with very little explanation. This thread is providing interesting information on a very specific tenement of Scientology.

In this age of instant information, we are all tantalized by secretive societies and enigmatic organizations. Of course we want to know more about Scientologists.

[winelover]

Think I rather stirred up a hornet's nest with this thread! (I say whilst ducking for cover!)

Seriously, one of the great things about FOH is that it is a well intentioned forum where members are not backwards in coming forwards for fear of PC "censorship". In fact it is a bit like a good pub atmosphere as has been mentioned.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by drawing members' attention to an article I found profoundly shocking. I am sure that everyone is sensitive to something and apologies if I hit a raw nerve, but it was never meant to be personal.

Anyway I should better put my white coat back on and get back to my patients ;-)

[Ethernut]

» Think I rather stirred up a hornet's nest with this thread! (I say whilst

» ducking for cover!)

»

» Seriously, one of the great things about FOH is that it is a well

» intentioned forum where members are not backwards in coming forwards for

» fear of PC "censorship". In fact it is a bit like a good pub atmosphere

» as has been mentioned.

»

» I'm sorry if I offended anyone by drawing members' attention to an article

» I found profoundly shocking. I am sure that everyone is sensitive to

» something and apologies if I hit a raw nerve, but it was never meant to be

» personal.

»

» Anyway I should better put my white coat back on and get back to my

» patients ;-)

Graham, I don't think your original post was ill intentioned. In fact, I thought it was funny, just so you know.. ;-)

[sandholm]

Check out these nut cases, http://www.godhatesfags.com/ (it is a church/religion) and they don't like Sweden so much either

I like us, do a lot of collaborations with Stanford, spend quite a lot of time in the bay area, and have lived both in Boston and in NY but I have to say that there live a lot of nutcases in that country, a lot of really nice interesting people that you can have really interesting conversation, but some have just lost it, like these guys

[sandholm]

» Check out these nut cases, http://www.godhatesfags.com/ (it is a

» church/religion) and they don't like Sweden so much either

»

» I like us, do a lot of collaborations with Stanford, spend quite a lot of

» time in the bay area, and have lived both in Boston and in NY but I have

» to say that there live a lot of nutcases in that country, a lot of really

» nice interesting people that you can have really interesting conversation,

» but some have just lost it, like these guys

I dont believe in censorship, but sometimes just sometimes I can justify it

http://www.thesignsofthetimes.net/ (another site from this church/religion)

[wdh]

» I dont believe in censorship, but sometimes just sometimes I can justify

» it

Careful Anders....that's a slippery slope, don’t you think? Some content on the Internet is certainly breathtakingly offensive, but I'll take my chances with it being wide open any day, as odious as some of these charlatans and troglodytes can be. If someone put you in charge and you justified censoring the two sites mentioned, how much harder it would be for people like this or L Ron Hubbard to be outed for the marginal kooks they are! Maybe it's a cultural thing, but when I hear people justify censorship or related things like putting holocaust deniers into prison, it makes me very uneasy...

[smokum]

»

» Anyway I should better put my white coat back on and get back to my

» patients ;-)

Please send me some fresh Prozac...I am running low and I fear I may join these freaks on another planet...Nanu-Nanu

[Professor Twain]

I'm pleased to see such a controversial topic discussed in such a civil manner, without personal attacks.

I've seen this type of thing quickly degenerate into namecalling on other Boards.

Three cheers for FOH!

[El Presidente]

» OK folks I really have resisted responding to this thread. I do appreciate

» Prez's remarks on the subject and think "good healthy" discussion is a

» good thing. Here's my concern, and crap, I'm going to say this out loud a

» risk of my reputation here but here I go.

»

» If one checks some of the other Cigar forums it's easy to find the

» pompous abrasive pricks on their forum. Here, it's not that way (atleast

» not yet).

And nor will I let the discussion get to the stage of personal attacks. Forum moderators and senior forum members are responsible in establishing and maintaining a forum culture.

This post is not anti-nugget. I know nugget and respect nugget. I don't agree with his thoughts on this topic of which he obviously feels strongly. Now if we were on the deck having a cigar together and a bottle of wine (as we have done previously) then we would argue to to's and fro's of this subject in the same manner. That is what is great in a free and open democracy.

I believe in open discussion and freedom to publish whatever you want as long as it:

1. Does not incite harm to minors.

2. Does not promote racism

3. Does not denigrate or promote harm to the intellectually handicapped, socially handicapped.

4. Does not incite physical harm to a community.

You can pick as many holes in the above as you want however it is the general "framework" I believe in.

Great thread Graham

[sandholm]

» » I dont believe in censorship, but sometimes just sometimes I can justify

» » it

»

» Careful Anders....that's a slippery slope, don’t you think? Some content

» on the Internet is certainly breathtakingly offensive, but I'll take my

» chances with it being wide open any day, as odious as some of these

» charlatans and troglodytes can be. If someone put you in charge and you

» justified censoring the two sites mentioned, how much harder it would be

» for people like this or L Ron Hubbard to be outed for the marginal kooks

» they are! Maybe it's a cultural thing, but when I hear people justify

» censorship or related things like putting holocaust deniers into prison,

» it makes me very uneasy...

Well, first I have to point out what I wrote (and you quoted ) I do not believe in censorship.

And I will address your last point first,"Maybe it's a cultural thing", and it is not, I have never been in Seattle but if I compare with the part of US where I have been and where I have lived (East and West Cost) there exist much more social censorship, this is a type of censorship that are not banned by law but are unwritten rules form society.

Now in Sweden you are allowed to say what you want, and write what you want along you do not agitate against an ethnic group, sexual orientation or religion. Now why this is banned is because in a free and democratic society you as individual should be free to live, now this can look contradictable but let take another example. In Sweden (and in many more democratic countries) home schooling has been banned, and this is done because to give the children more freedom, freedom to get the education they need to get into collage and university, so the state limits the parents "freedom" to give freedom to the child. Now these types of laws acts the same way, by limiting the freedom for an extremist small group you increase the freedom and democracy in the society. The same reason can be used for the so call "war against terrorism", by banning and limiting the terrorist traveling/activates and broadcast possibility you increase the freedom for the rest of the society.

When it comes to the banning of thoughts that the holocaust never existed I believe this has been done in countries that have a large population that have been effected by the holocaust (I think it is Germany and Isreal, correct me if I am wrong). Now this can be seen as an extreme law, but I think it has been made in the same thought as the home tutoring law, by banning an extremist thought you increase and give the freedom back to the people that have experienced it.

Now I don't say that this is a problematic problem, but if there are no laws that protect people from been persecuted, discriminated you don't have a democratic society, if you are "free" to do what you want to do you actually have anarchy, but if you limit peoples rights so they can persecute, discriminate or hurt other people you will have a free and democratic society.

This grew large, but I say it again, I am against censorship, but I believe that no human being have the right to persecute or discriminate another human being.

[nugget]

» » OK folks I really have resisted responding to this thread. I do

» appreciate

» » Prez's remarks on the subject and think "good healthy" discussion is a

» » good thing. Here's my concern, and crap, I'm going to say this out loud

» a

» » risk of my reputation here but here I go.

» »

» » If one checks some of the other Cigar forums it's easy to find the

» » pompous abrasive pricks on their forum. Here, it's not that way

» (atleast

» » not yet).

»

» And nor will I let the discussion get to the stage of personal attacks.

» Forum moderators and senior forum members are responsible in establishing

» and maintaining a forum culture.

»

» This post is not anti-nugget. I know nugget and respect nugget. I don't

» agree with his thoughts on this topic of which he obviously feels

» strongly. Now if we were on the deck having a cigar together and a bottle

» of wine (as we have done previously) then we would argue to to's and fro's

» of this subject in the same manner. That is what is great in a free and

» open democracy.

»

» I believe in open discussion and freedom to publish whatever you want as

» long as it:

»

» 1. Does not incite harm to minors.

» 2. Does not promote racism

» 3. Does not denigrate or promote harm to the intellectually handicapped,

» socially handicapped.

» 4. Does not incite physical harm to a community.

»

» You can pick as many holes in the above as you want however it is the

» general "framework" I believe in.

It was a fun argument though!

And one that can be continued by way whipping arse in poker in a couple of weeks.

Bring it on!:-)

Love that Monte Humidor!!!

[Ethernut]

» I am against censorship, but I

» believe that no human being have the right to persecute or discriminate

» another human being.

sandholm, my response here isn't to you specifically. I'm simply attempting to, in my limited way, address a couple problematic ideas I see presented in your post.

cen·sor

1. an official who examines books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc., for the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds.

2. any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.

3. an adverse critic; faultfinder.

4. (in the ancient Roman republic) either of two officials who kept the register or census of the citizens, awarded public contracts, and supervised manners and morals.

5. (in early Freudian dream theory) the force that represses ideas, impulses, and feelings, and prevents them from entering consciousness in their original, undisguised forms.

–verb (used with object)

6. to examine and act upon as a censor.

7. to delete (a word or passage of text) in one's capacity as a censor.

Eradication of censorship is an EXTREMELY slippery slope.

If there is no censorship, we are collectively affirming the abolishment of absolutes and welcoming the modern idea of relative truth/morality. An "if it's ok for you it's ok" truth, a kind of truth on hinges if you will. A scary thing. Western society is attempting to cast off a our mooring lines of stability in absolutes which leaves us as a ship drifting at sea with a ghost at the wheel.

What is right and wrong? ...and who decides?

Is it right for my 10 year old son to watch hardcore pornography? HELL NO. I would censor that wholeheartedly and I would imagine it wouldn't be appropriate for your 10 year old daughter or son to watch hardcore porno either...

Speaking of persecution and discrimination of a human being. I understand and agree on the terms and level of say, racial discrimination such as the black/white feud or the Nazi/Jew situation. No reasonably compassionate individual (in their right mind) would dare think otherwise. But that's where the argument ends in harmony and if taken further, becomes slippery.

Should we persecute/prosecute or discriminate against criminals for their behavior if they harm or take something dear to us? absofrigginlutely. We'll be the first one at the courthouse with a torch ready to burn their ass.

In the end, we can wave the relative morality flag all we like, but when it bites us in the butt, it becomes a problem.

Hitler was a censor by definition, he censored the life out of the Jews. Was that ok? Was he a good man? Would he be welcome in your home or at the next Czar Habano party? ;-) Doubtful. Wonder why that is?

[Colt45]

» » While it may appear that we have stacked the wood and pouring petrol for

» a

» » good old fashioned witch burning..........we are not ;-)

»

sure.