Meanwhile, back at the US Legislature ranch

[Lamboinee]

Update on some interesting US cigar legislation. I think Mr. Minato raises some interesting questions in his article. This could have a significant impact on all cigars given the large US market including Nudies ( I would presume). If enacted, would it further separate the NC world into US NCs and Non US NCs or have little to no impact?

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/03/10/2023-04591/requirements-for-tobacco-product-manufacturing-practice

 

https://halfwheel.com/15-thoughts-fda-proposes-regulating-cigar-factories-other-tobacco-manufacturing-facilities/421083/

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, Lamboinee said:

If enacted, would it further separate the NC world into US NCs and Non US NCs or have little to no impact?

US is too big a market for any NC manufacturer to ignore for very long.  

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, Lamboinee said:

If enacted, would it further separate the NC world into US NCs and Non US NCs or have little to no impact?

I read this as any cigar sold in the US would fall under these proposed rules, so no effective difference between USA-made or DR-made.

However the current litigation that looks to be leaning in the cigar industry's favor would exempt premium cigars from this rule. Once decided the FDA can go back and attempt to regulate premium cigars but must adhere to the limitations presumably forthcoming from Judge Mehta. I don't believe that judge is going to allow the FDA to regulate premium and non-premium cigars the same way. 

[Lamboinee]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I read this as any cigar sold in the US would fall under these proposed rules, so no effective difference between USA-made or DR-made

Generally, I Agree.  I think the more interesting aspect of this issue is, assuming the regulations were enacted as written, whether or not cigars not sold in the US would effectively be forced to comply with the same US regulations even if the manufacturers decide not to treat the cigars they sell in other countries differently from the ones they do sell in US.  I also agree that there seems to be ample room left for JM's decision to treat premium cigars differently.  Which is probably likely.  However, once a big-time regulatory agency (i.e. FDA) even dabbles their toe in a certain market....they typically end up with significantly more involvement.  The toe is dabbled and has been for decades.  So, at best, I think that these are premonitions from the Ghost of Cubans Future of what might come to pass....There's so much money to made in tobacco that I can't imagine the GOV not taking a bigger piece.  Especially after pumping so much into the US tobacco industry over the years and the fact that they smell blood in the water and see $$$$ signs after the recent 2nd boom.

I suppose my thoughts are that more regulation seems likely. So, if the proposed rules represent the "worst-case" deal for cigars (from t he manufacturers perspective), what does the middle ground look like?  Where do we end up in the next 5 years?  Whatever it is, I hope the regs are actually useful...For example, the inclusion of box dates seems like a no-brainier from a consumer stand point. We'll probably end up with another horse that was designed by a government committee.  aka a camel.  

[KnightsAnole]

2 hours ago, Lamboinee said:

So, at best, I think that these are premonitions from the Ghost of Cubans Future of what might come to pass....

That’s exactly how I read many parts of this too, a wink wink nudge nudge to future CCs that, if you want to play ball on this field, you have to put your big boy pants on. I’m skeptical of the FDAs ability to pull much of this off or even be effective, but I’m all for things like water, soap and toilet paper being required in every cigar factory that sells to the US, as well as some of the other ideas protecting consumers and not the manufacturers. I love innovation and a new blend as much as the next guy, but not if it means it might come with a shit stain.

[Lamboinee]

7 hours ago, KnightsAnole said:

but I’m all for things like water, soap and toilet paper

Yes, I'm a little ashamed of my lack of awareness concerning the well being of the people that roll them.

In addition to basics like soap and water, I'd also be on-board with detailed info on the tobacco, farms, rollers, etc. that made the cigars. But, I doubt there will ever be requirements to disclose these details with such specificity.

 

[PigFish]

Government cannot balance a budget more even create one on time. Yet they concern themselves with cigars….

where’s the tea?

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, Lamboinee said:

Yes, I'm a little ashamed of my lack of awareness concerning the well being of the people that roll them.

In addition to basics like soap and water, I'd also be on-board with detailed info on the tobacco, farms, rollers, etc. that made the cigars. But, I doubt there will ever be requirements to disclose these details with such specificity.

 

It tells you something about the conditions some cigars are rolled in that this even needs to be specified. 

When something like this comes out it’s often quietly pushed by established players in the field who are already meeting most or all of the regulations. They increase the barriers to entry, which established companies love. 

[KnightsAnole]

5 hours ago, PigFish said:

where’s the tea?

Fecal bacteria found in Starbucks tea in the UK is, more than a little different compared to an actual shit stain on your wrapper leaf.

[Montegod7ss]

I wouldn't mind seeing the FDA smacked in the nuts similar to how the EPA was in West Virginia vs. EPA.  Opinions of unelected bureaucrats never really mattered much to me.

[El Presidente]

I am sure that factories all over the DR, Nic, HD, Mexico are shaking in their boots anticipating an FDA raid at anytime.

If this gets up, consultants will be paid to have one of five cookie cutter responses/reports to submit. 

And for the record. If you don't look after your team in these countries.....they leave for a factory that does. Rollers are in high demand and too valuable a resource to mistreat.

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Montegod7ss said:

I wouldn't mind seeing the FDA smacked in the nuts similar to how the EPA was in West Virginia vs. EPA.  Opinions of unelected bureaucrats never really mattered much to me.

The real problem is both Auer deference and the Chevron deference, two of the most idiotic supreme court cases ever decided. It grants these agencies almost unlimited power in both rules and statute interpretation. It actually gives deference over all three branches of government to unelected bureaucrats. Almost all of the issues we have with these alphabet agencies stem from these two decisions.

Instead of saying if the statute or rule is ambiguous you can't do it they say if it's ambiguous do whatever you want. Who could forsee a problem with that? 

I think there had been a recent case that was supposedly going to chip away at at least Chevron (which is the more problematic of the two) but I haven't heard anything about it recently. 

[Lamboinee]

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

supposedly going to chip away

Preach! 

 

[jakebarnes]

16 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The real problem is both Auer deference and the Chevron deference, two of the most idiotic supreme court cases ever decided. It grants these agencies almost unlimited power in both rules and statute interpretation. It actually gives deference over all three branches of government to unelected bureaucrats. Almost all of the issues we have with these alphabet agencies stem from these two decisions.

Instead of saying if the statute or rule is ambiguous you can't do it they say if it's ambiguous do whatever you want. Who could forsee a problem with that? 

I think there had been a recent case that was supposedly going to chip away at at least Chevron (which is the more problematic of the two) but I haven't heard anything about it recently. 

Citizens United still takes the cake.

[bates40]

See also iPhone manufacturing, mining for precious materials which go into our precious iPhones, manufacturing of Nike shoes, etc. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

Hawaii the latest state to pursue 'generational' tobacco bans.

[Duxnutz]

6 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Hawaii the latest state to pursue 'generational' tobacco bans.

Really? Wouldn’t surprise me, they pretty bloody idiotic here. 

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, jakebarnes said:

Citizens United still takes the cake.

Citizens united is a very difficult case to reconcile with the first amendment. I would agree the effect of the outcome is sub-optimal however. Short of a constitutional amendment I'm not sure what can be done about it. 

Also keep in mind the situation post-Citizens United is the same as it was throughout the 19th century. The court ruled unconstitutional rules that had been in place since the early 20th century. 

But in terms of letter of the law I can think of 20 decisions more puzzling and bizarre, Chevron and Auer included. Off the top of my head throw in Florida v. Harris.