The Tube Effect

[Gamehawker]

I liked my H.Upmann Monarchs A/T better than my H.Upmann Monarchs.

[NitrousPurger]

I heard once that cigars needed to breathe in a way. I believe it’s so they can let off ammonia? It was recommended to open up the humidor to let fresh air in every once in a while. If that’s true, does a tube prevent or hinder that process?

[Derboesekoenig]

1 minute ago, NitrousPurger said:

I heard once that cigars needed to breathe in a way. I believe it’s so they can let off ammonia? It was recommended to open up the humidor to let fresh air in every once in a while. If that’s true, does a tube prevent or hinder that process?

This is true, but most of the ammonia in the freshies dissipates fairly quickly nowadays. Years instead decades now. It seems the consensus is that most people prefer tubes, especially for aging. Maybe they aid in the process, maybe not. If anything, it should slow the process, same mindset as when people seal entire boxes (semi-vacuum seal) before they put them in the humidor.

[houdini]

Its funny how we all seem to have different opinions and experiences on this subject. 

[shlomo]

2 hours ago, SenorPerfecto said:

That's as good of a guess as any I've seen. Either than or it's just a sponge...

I have indeed seen much more mold as well as beetles in tubed cigars over the years, but never thought that the cedar would have been the culprit. I would have guessed that the cigar is the harborer of the spores, much more so than the cedar, and the reason for the increased mold and beetle activity is due to a sealed environment within the tube. I certainly have not experienced any more mold on cedar wrapped cigars (NC or CC) that are boxed with the wrapping, but not a tube.

Interesting to read about other's opinions that the cedar may be the cause. I remain skeptical.

[NSXCIGAR]

On 12/18/2018 at 1:52 PM, El Presidente said:

Perform worse in a specific way? flavour? consistency? construction? overall utility?

Flavor.

I chase down what's smoking well, and I've never smoked a tubed version and thought it was better than the non-tubed. I'm sure I've had some good ones over 20 years, but I never think "this tubed is much better than the non." In fact, as I mentioned, I almost always find them disappointing in comparison.

I don't mind, particularly since I'm a cheap bastard and love not having to pay the premium for the tubes. 

I don't think it has anything to do with the tubes. I'm not floating any theories. I just chalk it up to personal experience. 

[NSXCIGAR]

11 hours ago, joshhooper7 said:

...One of my favorite cigars from 2018 was a Boli Tubo No. 1...

That's not a cigar in tubed version. Boli Nos. 1-3 are unique models and not like Boli RC in tubes. The No. 2 is not a BPC in tubes--it's a Boli No. 2. 

FWIW, I prefer Boli No. 2 to the PC. And the No. 3 is a very good cigar--one of if not the best Boli IMO except for its size. 

[ponfed]

On 12/18/2018 at 11:26 PM, RijkdeGooier said:

Except that it doesn’t work that way in cigars. 

Two points:

1. The boxcode is just that - the date and factory they were boxed in. 

That is not necessary the time of production. 

2. Each cigar is likely to contain tobacco from different years as the different elements that make up a cigar are stored for different times until used in production. 

As a result we tend to use ‘boxdate’ to refer to the box. 

Vintage within the cigar community is used to indicate cigars that have aged for a number of years. The number of years varies, but has generally been subjected to deflation. 

Whereas 10 years was used in the past, currently cigars with just 5 years are considered vintage. 

I'm gonna have to disagree, in a good natured but slightly an*l retentive way.

If you say :I have vintage cigars to trade. Then your definition applies and you can expect 5 years +. It's used colloquially for a bunch of stuff. Vintage clothes, vintage toys, vintage whatever.

But I feel it's perfectly clear when you say :that's a 2018 vintage that you mean it's a cigar produced in 2018. And it's the original usage of the word. And it's also used colloquially. I more than once referred to my daughter as a 2012 vintage. 

 

To say something on topic: I have a box of 2016 punch punch tubos that are way better than 2017 Punch Punch DB, but the cigars themselves are better looking and have better aroma. So it might be a case of Garbage in garbage out, plus it's not that long of a time.

 

[RDB]

Let's come at this a slightly different way: why and how do we think a tube should make a difference?

What physical / chemical processes are different in tubes, and how might this affect the things we care about (i.e. speed of ageing, burn, body, deliciousness etc.)?

One relatively un-controversial factor seems to be the cedar sleeve, which many people say imparts an additional flavour.

Much more controversial is the impact of a tube on air and moisture ingress. My understanding is that tubes are generally not particularly airtight, so if you have some cigars ageing in a box next to the same cigars in tubes, then after a few weeks they are in basically the same RH.

Presumably airflow is lower to cigars in tubes, so unless we're talking about sealed and undisturbed boxes, there is going to be some difference there. And over the long term I'd guess that volatile compounds will disperse more quickly from cigars 'in the open' than cigars in tubes.

So I'd guess that cigars in tubes might retain more flavour over the long term for this reason.  

[RijkdeGooier]

23 hours ago, ponfed said:

I'm gonna have to disagree, in a good natured but slightly an*l retentive way.

If you say :I have vintage cigars to trade. Then your definition applies and you can expect 5 years +. It's used colloquially for a bunch of stuff. Vintage clothes, vintage toys, vintage whatever.

But I feel it's perfectly clear when you say :that's a 2018 vintage that you mean it's a cigar produced in 2018. And it's the original usage of the word. And it's also used colloquially. I more than once referred to my daughter as a 2012 vintage. 

 

To say something on topic: I have a box of 2016 punch punch tubos that are way better than 2017 Punch Punch DB, but the cigars themselves are better looking and have better aroma. So it might be a case of Garbage in garbage out, plus it's not that long of a time.

 

??

I’ll fold. As gentlemen I’m sure we can agree to disagree. 

[ponfed]

 

On 12/21/2018 at 2:48 AM, RijkdeGooier said:

??

I’ll fold. As gentlemen I’m sure we can agree to disagree. 

Here here.

[bpm32]

On 12/20/2018 at 3:20 AM, RDB said:

Let's come at this a slightly different way: why and how do we think a tube should make a difference?

What physical / chemical processes are different in tubes, and how might this affect the things we care about (i.e. speed of ageing, burn, body, deliciousness etc.)?

One relatively un-controversial factor seems to be the cedar sleeve, which many people say imparts an additional flavour.

Much more controversial is the impact of a tube on air and moisture ingress. My understanding is that tubes are generally not particularly airtight, so if you have some cigars ageing in a box next to the same cigars in tubes, then after a few weeks they are in basically the same RH.

Presumably airflow is lower to cigars in tubes, so unless we're talking about sealed and undisturbed boxes, there is going to be some difference there. And over the long term I'd guess that volatile compounds will disperse more quickly from cigars 'in the open' than cigars in tubes.

So I'd guess that cigars in tubes might retain more flavour over the long term for this reason.  

Yeah, that’s the way I look at it too. Equilibrium of all the gases (water, oxygen, nitrogen, and off-gassed by-products from “aging”) would be the same for the box and the tubos, but it would take longer for the gas diffusion in and out to occur with the tubos. If the cigars in both containers were over-humidified to begin with (or the temp drops), the condensed water would stay in the tubo longer, and that may be enough time for mold to form.

Likewise, both containers allow oxygen in, which then reacts with organic compounds in the cigars at some particular rate, but the tubos let oxygen in slower, so you’d expect oxidation rate to be slowed in the tubo cigars versus the boxed ones. 

Finally there may be some gaseous by-product of aging that can turn around and react again with the cigar in the tubo, but isn’t around long enough in the box to react before diffusion carries it away. Kind of like leaving me alone with a plate of forbidden donuts for 30 seconds versus 30 minutes. In that case the 25% chance of the donuts getting eaten rises to 110%, 10% higher than is even physically possible.