Humidity Fluctuations

[NYMets01]

About 3 months ago, I bought a Eurocave Humidor rated for about 1,000 cigars. It’s currently holding ~400 cigars.

While I expect the humidity to fluctuate with the temperature, these kind of humidity swings seem a little extreme to me. I’m curious to hear what you all think. 

For reference, I have 65% Bovedas and 65% Heartfelt Beads as the humidity source. I reached out to each of the manufacturers to ensure I have the appropriate amount of each given the size of the unit.

Obviously, the average humidity is about where I want it but the swings just seem a little greater than what I was expecting.

Take a look at the picture below and let me know what you think. Thanks!

[PapaDisco]

That is a significant rH swing, however it's just over a 30 minute period.  If your cigars are in their boxes they'll hardly feel this (humble opinion, not empirical result).  My experience in tropical environments is that a naked cigar can feel huge rH swings quite quickly (take a cigar out of a 65rH/70F environment to a deck at 85/85), but your swings are much less than that and not sustained.

I'll be interested to hear from those with the equations if this is an expected rH swing for the temperature.  10% temp gain/loss is a bit of an swing for a professional cabinet, no?

[PrairieSmoke]

I was surprised to see just how much this is swinging. Are there any fans in your setup?


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[NYMets01]

No fans, other than the internal ones the help regulate the temperature.

That's with the sensor on the bottom shelf. I get very similar results if the sensor is on the top shelf. The middle shelf will show a tighter range.

I wonder if it has to do with having Bovedas AND Heartfelt beads in there. Boveda specifically says you shouldn't use competing humidity sources but I always assumed that was just marketing hype/spin.

The cigars are generally in boxes and stacked cedar trays and the time at each "spike" is minimal so I'm more confused than overly concerned.

[Islandboy]

Is this a compressor type refrigeration system? The spikes seem patterned to coincide with the temp fluctuations, which look to coincide with a compressor kicking on and off at regular intervals. This all could then be normal M.O. for this machine....I’d contact Eurocave and ask them.

[Wilzc]

The cigars!!  They're ALIVE!!!  BREATHING!

[luvdunhill]

The cigars!!  They're ALIVE!!!  BREATHING!

Cigarcadian Rhythm?

[NYMets01]

It's a compressor type system. I will try reaching out to Eurocave but they've generally been pretty unhelpful in my experience.

My next move is likely going to be turning off the temp control and see if the humidity stays in a tighter range without the compressor running.

If I'm still seeing the swings, I'm going with the cigars actually having a respiratory system!

[fitzy]

Are those boveda packs and the beads of the same percentage? 

Also did you season your humidor? 

[NYMets01]

I bought the beads from HCM (I mistakenly said Heartfelt above) pre-set at 65%. So I'm assuming that's were they're at humidity-wise.

However, I guess I can take out one of the canisters and seal it in a tupperware to test that assumption.

Boveda are 65% packs as well.

I never seasoned the humidor specifically but have had cigars in and the humidity source in there for nearly 2 months now.

[PapaDisco]

I'd take out either the beads or the Bovedas, before turning of the compressor.  See if that changes anything.

[jtfrizzy]

Also, my experience with HCM beads is they take a few week up to a month or two to really hit their stride. Atleast that was the case with my HCM in my winador. I runt he same set up HMC 65% and Boveda 65% it took about a month for the top, bottom and middle to hold steady at 65% I have a 120mm comluter fan in the bottom programmed to come on for 2 minutes (maybe it's only 1 minute I can't rember) every hour. I highly recommend that if you can facilitate it with your current setup. Either way, listen to what the rest of these guys are telling you first, but consider that as well.

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[magoo6541]

I have a very old EuroCave (80's if I remember right) that I converted myself. I did notice with mine that the rH fluctuates more when the unit was less full.  At one point it was pretty full and as I recall, it held a pretty rock solid rH. It's currently about 1/4 full (will hold 125ish boxes and I have maybe 30 right now) and the fluctuations I see is much less than yours.  My temperature is less stable but mine uses mechanical thermostats where yours are probably digital. It'll fluctuate between 62°F - 66°F and 62% - 67% rH. For what it's worth I have 20 65% Boveda 60g bags and a large tupperware of KL in the bottom of the unit for an additional buffer.

[Luca]

I'm surprised @PigFish hasn't commented yet. Ray has a lot of knowledge on this topic.

[NYMets01]

39 minutes ago, magoo6541 said:

I have a very old EuroCave (80's if I remember right) that I converted myself. I did notice with mine that the rH fluctuates more when the unit was less full.  At one point it was pretty full and as I recall, it held a pretty rock solid rH. It's currently about 1/4 full (will hold 125ish boxes and I have maybe 30 right now) and the fluctuations I see is much less than yours.  My temperature is less stable but mine uses mechanical thermostats where yours are probably digital. It'll fluctuate between 62°F - 66°F and 62% - 67% rH. For what it's worth I have 20 65% Boveda 60g bags and a large tupperware of KL in the bottom of the unit for an additional buffer.

So filling it will solve my problem? That’s a solution I can support...my wife, not so much. 

[magoo6541]

26 minutes ago, NYMets01 said:

So filling it will solve my problem? That’s a solution I can support...my wife, not so much. 

Fill it up! Get a PO Box and the wife won't see the incoming packages.

Really though, as PapaDisco said above, I don't believe your cigars are losing and gaining any moisture in the short time you at the far ends of your rH swing. If you're concerned about it, maybe throw a small 65% 8g bag in your boxes for additional protection but I don't believe it's really necessary.

Is there any way to change your temperature setting where it isn't as "strict" with holding a specified temperature? It does seem the compressor is running a lot and it's only fluctuating 0.9°F.  That's a really tight tolerance. Maybe if you could get that to widen out a little bit, the compressor wouldn't be running as much and the rH could have a little time to stabilize a bit more.

[PigFish]

It is a bit difficult for me to answer some of these threads because of the appearance of me 'high hatting' people. Better cigar storage techniques have been a bit of a life's work for me. As a result I am pretty good at it.

The short answer to you @NYMets01 is that your humidor does not work very well... Now before you get up in arms, bear in mind that this is just my opinion. Like beauty, the heuristic humidor is in the eyes of the beholder.

You have a few things working for you. One, is that the rhythm is largely cyclical and as you say, 'the average' is about what you want. So to clarify my statement above a bit, lets say you wish to change the rH average? Can you? if the answer is yes, then you are one step closer to a working humidor. A working humidor allows you to adjust the climate of your cigars (IMHO), it does not dictate to you what you must accept. If what you accept is better than the room that the humidor resides, well then, you have some semblance of a working humidor. I hope this makes sense to you.

I can fix some of this... But it all depends on your sophistication with electronics and your ability to understand a little physics.

Yes, this does have something to do with a compressor cooling devices, but then again, a TE cooler does the same thing if it cools at all. Compressors are superior in every way to TE devises. People don't use TE devises to cool their homes now do they? That is because they are terribly inefficient (don't work very well...). In other words, don't buy into the Newair propaganda that they pitch about their devises. It is BS... TEs are basically cheap. Cheap parts make for cheaper end products. The argument made by those who sell TE devises is of a proxy (superiority) when in fact, in actuality, it is about economics.

I could write on and on about your situation, but since I know what the problems are, I might as well get to the point.

The problems are several. First and foremost is the fact that you are attempting to use a passive hydration system with an active cooling system. Frankly, this does not work... Remember, working or not working is in the eye of the beholder.

This is working...

This is a Gen 13 humidor running in a 98F ambient...! Yes, you read that right. This is a cheap, Asian wine cooler, using a compressor to keep cigars at about 69F at 60rH. Bear in mind this is not an ambient 2 or 3 F off the set point. This is 28F off the set point...! My rH fluxes are for seconds, and my standard deviation is very small compared to yours. This is extreme cigar storage, to say the least. This is a working controlled humidor.

Enough about what I think works... So what can you do?

Well, if you don't want to get into engineering, you will never get what I can get. Those are facts. BUT, you can get better performance with a few tricks and some experimenting.

• Up your set point for temp. Simple, ask your cooler to do less work, get less cycle and less flux in temp and rH.
• Beware! Less cycles can lead to high rH problems (a flaw with your engineering) not easily fixed by you.
• Buy a new controller! A decent, logic controller will allow you to adjust the logic (set point differential and activation logic) to a point where the cooler short cycles.

You might want to read up on one of my threads about activation logic: 

 

Lets talk about short cycling a bit. Short cycling is not empirically harmful to these coolers. They are low pressure units and quite robust. They tend to get damaged more by constant use (always on) more than constant cycling. My test box is more than a decade old now. It runs in my shop at about Generation 10 tech. Occasionally I break a relay or other electromechanical part. The cooler runs and runs and runs. It will also store cigars in a 95F ambient. It has worked for over 10 years with my short-cycling philosophy. The cooler cost me $140... It is not anything of 'high' quality. You can see it in some of Utube vids.

Lets say you get a cheap logic controller to replace the static logic one in your cooler. Lets also say you adjust that controller to give you a 0.2F set point differential. This means basically that at a 70F set point it runs at 70.1 and shuts down at 69.9. What does that do for you? It....

• Increases your cycle rate
• Will likely start and stop every 5 to 15 minutes depending on the ambient.
• Will dehydrate much less. Why, because you won't allow it to run long enough to condense all your ambient rH out of the humidor?
• It will, there for, be off a much shorter period of time.
• There will then be much less chance of over hydration as the cooling coil warms and the water cooks off of it.
• This should solve some of the deep dehydration as well as the over-hydration periods.

Bear in mind... This will completely foul up your average. It could get better or worse, depending on the ambient and the hysteresis of your passive rH buffers.

Lastly you need an short cycle device to protect your thermal breaker and/or the compressor on your cooler.

The rest is up to you to experiment with, and the will of God...!

Good luck to you on your humidor project.

-The Pig

 

[NYMets01]

Thank you everyone for the very thoughtful replies.

As you can probably imagine Pig's post just nudged me down a slippery slope of controllers, activation logic, humidification systems and wherever else this is about to take me.

I'll keep everyone posted along the way....