Does Humid Air Rise or Sink?

[prodigy]

Until you stabilize the entire internal climate, there's no way to know if you need another humidifier. The temp should be roughly equalized and the humidity should be within a few degrees rH. Take some time and really think about how you want to position the new fans. It is possible to install them and not accomplish anything that helps.

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[shlomo]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:14 PM, Drguano said:

Last summer I bought a used tower humidor with an old Cigar Oasis Magna humidifier. I removed the foam brick and used it with distilled water and water saver beads until Xmas. The Magna was on the bottom shelf and kept the lower area around 65-67%. The r/h readings were lower at the upper shelf where the temp is a bit warmer. There they were  around 59-60%. I keep digital hygrometers on each of the shelves and switched them around to be sure the hygrometers were roughly accurate. In December, the h started dropping to about 54% on the top shelf and I decided to get a new Magna 2.0. 

I installed the new one and now the h is 90% + on the lowest shelf where the new Magna sits (right where the old one was), 87% on the next shelf, then 70%, 61% and 57% 0n the top shelf.

I was wondering if it was air flow being blocked by boxes so I emptied the 2nd shelf up and the left side of the remaining shelves. Not much change overnight.

Then I cannibalized the top of the old Magna and have it on the top shelf to run as an aux fan. After an hour, h on bottom is 87% @ 63F, then (moving upwards) 82% @63F, 78% @ 65F, 61% @ 70F, 61%@ 68F and 55% @ 70F on the top shelf.

I am wondering how to get lower h on the bottom shelves and higher h at the top.

I have the sensor/controller mounted on the back wall on the top shelf.

My reading says humid air rises.

Any thoughts?

Put your humidifiers at the top, some beads or other minor humidification at the bottom. The Magna, Hydra, Oasis, etc.. Don't turn water into true water vapor, rather (unless it is heated) it sprays tiny water droplets out. The humid air in your humidor will always drop to the bottom.

Been into the cups tonight....hope I'm not confused...LOL

Nice humidor!

[shlomo]

On 1/6/2018 at 8:09 PM, stogieluver said:

At the request of @GotaCohiba, I'm posting a photo of my M Plus. 

The point being, with all four shelves two boxes deep, you have to remove the front row of boxes on each shelf to find the box you're looking for.  I know, First World problem.   

Nice load of cigar and beauty humi!

You're shit at Tetris though...easily another 5-7 boxes capacity...hahaha

[LGC]

If your humidor is directly over a crawl space, it would also help to elevate it off of the floor to prevent conductive cooling... or set it on an insulated base

[Drguano]

An update. I installed a small Hydra humidifier on the top shelf and set the level for 64% and left the sensor for the Magna unit on the top shelf as well. The Hydra maintains the upper region around 64-66% and the Magna keeps the lower regions around 66-68%. I am happy with this. I am content with the knowledge that the accuracy of the hygrometers is flaky even though I annually replace the batteries and calibrate with the Boveda kit when necessary. After all, this isn’t the Cavendish. Readings between 60 and 70% means not too dry and not to moist and good enough for me.

[jtfrizzy]

I saw you got a few answers on this but I will weigh in anyways. Humid air or the water vapor in the air (same thing) is lighter than air so it will tend to rise. The majority of air is Nitrogen but in molecular N2 form so the rough weight of air is 28 (actually slightly higher but whose counting). Humidity or water vapor is simply water, H2O which has a molecular weight of roughly 18. Temperature and more specifically dew point play into this as well because if the air is too cold the water vapor in the air will no longer stay in a gaseous form and will fall to the ground in the form of dew or if you get your humidor too cold woukd fall to the bottom and/or cling to anything the water droplets can stick too.

All and all relating to cigars and humidors. The way I always check to make sure my humidity is right is to have a hydrometer at the top and a hydrometer and thermometer combo in the bottom portion of my humidor. That way you can make sure the humidity at the top is not too high and since temperature is relatively constant in a humidor can make sure the temperature is above the dew point so water doesn't condense (which it shouldn't anyways) and at the same time make sure you still have enough humidity in the bottom. Sorry for the long winded post on this. I just like to nerd it out every now and then.

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[PigFish]

I saw this some time ago but it looked like most of the correct answers have been covered.

There is really a lot of work to a homogenous tower humidor. It is not easy...

Yes, water rises but it is not the only cause. Heat also rises and that makes the top (at times) appear dryer than it may be when absolute humidity is considered. So heat differential, I believe @Brandon brought up the base cooling, is likely also a factor.

In one of my 5~6cuft, engineered systems I have the means to convey about 100cfm (aggregate) running 24/7 and it still does not net perfection. Much depends on what total systems are running in the humidor that affect both temperature and rH. How well the systems react to the ambient and how efficient they are also plays a role. This is all humidor engineering stuff and not simply fans and controls.

So here is a data log pulled from December showing some behavior (micro view) of a Gen 13 humidor working in winter. Since my climate can still run warm in winter here on Isla Pigfish, I captured a cooling cycle in the mix. These are two separate data loggers with 4 streams (2 rH and 2 temp) at the top and bottom of the humidor. The key thing to notice is that the top of the humidor can actually be cooler....! This has to do with a combination of design, placement of the logger and perhaps even the instruments themselves. You will likely never really know unless you like to store more sensors than cigars!!!

At my level, chasing 1/10ths gets to be an obsession but a rather silly game of mine... 

Yet there is a relationship to notice. In more stable states, one where a cooling cycle has not just run, one can see that the lower temperature sensor, coincides much of the time with the sensor that shows a higher rH. If you backed this data out, I have not done it here but I have before, one will generally find that psychrometrics will show that the aH is consistent across both sensors. The balance of actual water in the system is often the same, and it is the instrument reflecting a delta T, that gives you the delta rH.

Just more food for thought when you are kicking around humidor theory!

Cheers all!!! -the Pig

[Fugu]

Poor example Piggy - your devices are just too close to each other to make any decent logical statement....   []

[dowjr1]

Pigfish’s posts make my brain hurt.

 

[jtfrizzy]

Damn@PigFish that was practically a mic drop right there. Hard to top that. Good stuff. Learned a thing or two there. I know one thing though, once I build my tower I know who I'm gonna ask for advice.

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[patrick_harmon44]

Now that's some cigar porn.

At the request of [mention=2344]GotaCohiba[/mention], I'm posting a photo of my M Plus. 


The point being, with all four shelves two boxes deep, you have to remove the front row of boxes on each shelf to find the box you're looking for.  I know, First World problem.   

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[patrick_harmon44]

It all depends in humidifier placement and means of air flow. The act of evaporation is in itself a cooling process so as it evaporates it tends to want to sink. After it stabilizes or will rise. I've had this issue when my chsirside seal went bad and with constant evaporation it had a high rh I'm the bottom but constantly was having to recharge my packs and had very info distant stick hydration. Once I replaced the seal I go through maybe 1/10th the packs and I have a 6rh change with the bottom being drier at about a 3ft linear distance. I got an xikar timed fan for winter and everything has been hands off since. I think I'll be removing the fan entirely now and storing some ccs in the bottom now hopefully once I get through some samplers.

I’ve heard this several times before, so explain why my bovedas in the top shelf exude moisture and dry up while those on the bottom shelf are absorbing excess moisture and puff up. Every time I see someone concerned about different readings on gauges, they always have a higher reading on the lower gauge. I’m not saying you’re wrong, again I’ve heard it many times, it just goes against what I’m seeing in real life. 

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[patrick_harmon44]

Also it takes a bit of work but I eventually put an active humidifier in my tower. To save space I mounted it with hanger bolts and brackets about 4" from the ceiling. For circulation all I did was glue in 1/2 in square dowles the width of a biveda sheet that runs from the top section down the back and to near the bottom front. I lost 5/8th of an inch of space along the 6 or 8 inch strip along the back. My xikar fan kicks on and circulates air through the humidor. The sheet absorbs or excretes what it needs to 65% and the humidifier only kicks on when the humidor as a whole needs more rh. No more packs for beads in the tower for goinf on 3 years and have only filled the reservoir twice. I also run water gel beads with a couple drops of peroxide.

 

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