High Humidity Issues

[Sean3]

Have a wineador; NewAir 281, drain plugged, Oasis humidifier, Calibre IV hygrometer, spanish cedar shelves...cannot get humidity below 67%.  It is not plugged in as temp is controlled via ambient room temp, 67F-71F.  Ambient Rh in the room can vary wildly depending on outside weather conditions.  The wineador, with the Oasis used for humidity control, holds a relatively steady 67%-71%.  Regardless of how low I drop the setting on the Oasis, the Rh always goes back up to at least 66%.  My intention is to try and establish a 62%-65% Rh range.  I'm considering replacing the foam in the Oasis, with beads.  I am also considering Boveda packs.  What say you?  Cheers. 

[MahDooRow]

Is the wineador stored in a room that is not insulated and not temperature controlled?  If that's the case I'd suggest moving it to a room that will maintain relatively stable conditions.  Some fluctuation is OK, but if your ambient rH will "vary wildly depending on outside weather conditions" (as stated in your original post) it will be tough to stabilize the environment inside the wineador.        

[CaptainQuintero]

How are your cigars smoking? Do they need relighting when lit? Are they crispy to the squeeze or not much noise at all?

The biggest thing I had to let go of was relying on my hygrometers. Unless your buying lab-level hygrometers at triple digits then they are inaccurate anything up to 5-7% regardless of what the box says.

I run three in my big storage to take an average but even then it's just a rough idea. Even recalibration via the special packs can end up giving bigger headaches than you had in the first place.

If your stuff is smoking well, that's most of the battle won. If not then it gets more complicated!

[Fugu]

Take the Oasis out.

It is a humidifier and not a dehumidifier. So why still have that in your storage?

[MrCrowley39]

I agree take out the Oasis, I had another version (Hydra SM) in my Wineador, it started out good then the humidity issues happened. I switched over to beads, I'm far from an expert but they hold the humidity fairly stable and my sticks seemed to have improved, needing less relights than before.

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[MahDooRow]

I have no experience with Oasis active humidification systems, but the advice to take it out seems correct.  A passive system (i.e. beads) will humidify or dehumidify as necessary to stabilize the rH.  I use 1/2 lb. of HCM beads in my NewAir 281-e (supplemented with Boveda packs as necessary) to maintain 60% - 62% rH.  It took some experimentation with location of the beads as well as distribution of shelves and drawers to even things out, but after some trial and error the system is working great.  I currently keep drawers on top, shelves in the middle and bottom.  The HCM beads rest on the middle shelf.   

[lostsoulcamero]

I use a oasis xl boveda 65 and a fan from Mr piggy my oasis adds humiduty boveda regulates and fun circulates works like a charm when boveda starts drying I turn up oasis a bit to charge 

[Philc2001]

I agree with others already noted, take the oasis out. This summer has been very hot and more humid/rainy than recent summers in memory here in S. Florida. I removed all humidity sources from my wineador (which is not plugged in), and still my RH is at 68% based on my Accurite hygrometer. I'll try to let it fall to 62% before I put the small 3x3 tupperware container with water gel crystals back in. Typically that keeps my RH steady through most of the year around 63-66% RH, until this summer.

BTW, I don't advocate plugging the drain unless the RH in your wineador is lower than the ambient RH in your room. The drain in my Haier is a small 3/8 hole, which doesn't cause any problem. In my house the AC keeps RH between 40-50%, so as I try to reduce RH I will sometimes keep the door ajar for short periods to let some humidity escape.

[Sean3]

4 hours ago, MahDooRow said:

Is the wineador stored in a room that is not insulated and not temperature controlled?  If that's the case I'd suggest moving it to a room that will maintain relatively stable conditions.  Some fluctuation is OK, but if your ambient rH will "vary wildly depending on outside weather conditions" (as stated in your original post) it will be tough to stabilize the environment inside the wineador.        

During the summer, when it's mild out, I just leave the window open for fresh air and do not run the A/C unless it's hot out.  This is why the ambient humidity in the room can vary so much.  Today, ambient humidity outside was 44%...yesterday, it was as high as 74%.  I would seem the Oasis may be problem at this point.  

[Sean3]

2 hours ago, MahDooRow said:

I have no experience with Oasis active humidification systems, but the advice to take it out seems correct.  A passive system (i.e. beads) will humidify or dehumidify as necessary to stabilize the rH.  I use 1/2 lb. of HCM beads in my NewAir 281-e (supplemented with Boveda packs as necessary) to maintain 60% - 62% rH.  It took some experimentation with location of the beads as well as distribution of shelves and drawers to even things out, but after some trial and error the system is working great.  I currently keep drawers on top, shelves in the middle and bottom.  The HCM beads rest on the middle shelf.   

I have removed all the foam from the Oasis and dried the inside out, it is essentially just a fan.  Humidity holding at 65% with no humidification in the wineador at all.  Those HCM beads are interesting, I may try them when I get the humidity down around 62%.  Appreciate the advice...I love this website/forum!

[Sean3]

2 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

How are your cigars smoking? Do they need relighting when lit? Are they crispy to the squeeze or not much noise at all?

The biggest thing I had to let go of was relying on my hygrometers. Unless your buying lab-level hygrometers at triple digits then they are inaccurate anything up to 5-7% regardless of what the box says.

I run three in my big storage to take an average but even then it's just a rough idea. Even recalibration via the special packs can end up giving bigger headaches than you had in the first place.

If your stuff is smoking well, that's most of the battle won. If not then it gets more complicated!

Haven't smoked anything from the wineador since endeavoring to lower the humidity, prior to that however...I'd get a wonky burn and they'd go out.

[Sean3]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Take the Oasis out.

It is a humidifier and not a dehumidifier. So why still have that in your storage?

Agreed Fugu.  I have removed the foam from the Oasis and dried it out, it is now just a fan for air circulation...there is no humidification in the wineador at this time and humidity is holding at 65% thus far, and I believe it will drop further over time.  Once it gets down to about 62%, I think I'll try some beads...the Oasis is clearly too much.  Thanks for the input sir.

[MahDooRow]

4 hours ago, Sean3 said:

During the summer, when it's mild out, I just leave the window open for fresh air and do not run the A/C unless it's hot out.  This is why the ambient humidity in the room can vary so much.  Today, ambient humidity outside was 44%...yesterday, it was as high as 74%.  I would seem the Oasis may be problem at this point.  

To better deal with large swings in ambient humidity you want to remain nimble.  It's generally better to err on the side of lower rH with a wineador so you can add beads when necessary rather than trying to lower rH if your levels are too high.  If you're holding at 65%rH with no humidification in the wineador I'd keep it that way for the time being.  Keep the door of the wineador closed for a few days and take note of the range of rH in the wineador relative to changes in external ambient humidity.

Potentially a bigger concern will be temperature.  I say potentially because I don't know where you're located or how hot it gets in the summer months.  If your ambient temperatures never exceed 80F then you can disregard the following.  However, if you do experience ambient temperatures above 80F in the room where the wineador is stored then read on...  

The maximum temp. setting for the 281-e is 66F.  If ambient temperatures are significantly higher than 66F, the thermoelectric cooling mechanism will be very active and will likely cause it to run at temperatures below the dew point.  A breach of the dew point will generate water, which will drip from the bottom of the fan inside the wineador and it will pool at the bottom near the drain.  The net result is an increase in absolute humidity inside the wineador.  In turn your cigars will get moist and soggy.  They will not smoke well, they will taste bad; and if the condition persists you will eventually have a mold problem.

To solve this dilemma you could relocate the wineador to a climate controlled environment in which your ambient temperature is relatively close to the target temperature inside the wineador.  This will mitigate the risk of breaching the dew point when the thermoelectric cooling mechanism is on.  It will also reduce the amount of time that the thermoelectric cooling mechanism needs to run so that if the dew point is breached it will only be for a short duration.  In the room where my wineador is stored the ambient temperature is a steady 76F-77F (rH is approximately 56%).  My wineador temperature is set at the maximum setting of 66F.  I do not have any perspiration on the interior walls of the wineador nor any water on the interior floor near the drain.  Per my two interior hygrometers the interior temperature is stable between 67F and 69F and the rH is steady between 61% and 63%.  

If you can't relocate the wineador to a climate controlled room you could simply unplug it.  You will obviously lose the ability to cool, but several people on the forum have used this strategy with good results.  

I hope this helps.          

 

[Sean3]

8 minutes ago, MahDooRow said:

To better deal with large swings in ambient humidity you want to remain nimble.  It's generally better to err on the side of lower rH with a wineador so you can add beads when necessary rather than trying to lower rH if your levels are too high.  If you're holding at 65%rH with no humidification in the wineador I'd keep it that way for the time being.  Keep the door of the wineador closed for a few days and take note of the range of rH in the wineador relative to changes in external ambient humidity.

Potentially a bigger concern will be temperature.  I say potentially because I don't know where you're located or how hot it gets in the summer months.  If your ambient temperatures never exceed 80F then you can disregard the following.  However, if you do experience ambient temperatures above 80F in the room where the wineador is stored then read on...  

The maximum temp. setting for the 281-e is 66F.  If ambient temperatures are significantly higher than 66F, the thermoelectric cooling mechanism will be very active and will likely cause it to run at temperatures below the dew point.  A breach of the dew point will generate water, which will drip from the bottom of the fan inside the wineador and it will pool at the bottom near the drain.  The net result is an increase in absolute humidity inside the wineador.  In turn your cigars will get moist and soggy.  They will not smoke well, they will taste bad; and if the condition persists you will eventually have a mold problem.

To solve this dilemma you could relocate the wineador to a climate controlled environment in which your ambient temperature is relatively close to the target temperature inside the wineador.  This will mitigate the risk of breaching the dew point when the thermoelectric cooling mechanism is on.  It will also reduce the amount of time that the thermoelectric cooling mechanism needs to run so that if the dew point is breached it will only be for a short duration.  In the room where my wineador is stored the ambient temperature is a steady 76F-77F (rH is approximately 56%).  My wineador temperature is set at the maximum setting of 66F.  I do not have any perspiration on the interior walls of the wineador nor any water on the interior floor near the drain.  Per my two interior hygrometers the interior temperature is stable between 67F and 69F and the rH is steady between 61% and 63%.  

If you can't relocate the wineador to a climate controlled room you could simply unplug it.  You will obviously lose the ability to cool, but several people on the forum have used this strategy with good results.            

 

I will be taking your advice about leaving things be for a while.  I do have fairly good control of the room temperature that the wineador is in...@66F - 72F year round.  Since removing the Oasis (I actually just removed the foam substrate, rendering it a fan for air circulation), the humidity has dropped about 3 percentage points.  If it continues to drop, I will add some beads as you suggest, until I find the sweet spot.  It appears patience (not my virtue) is what's needed.  This may require meds. 

Incidentally, while humidity in the wineador was running at 69% - 71%, I had issues.  To wit...a RyJ and a Cuaba not only had burn issues, they also were both bitter.  So, I look forward to smoking some stock stored at a lower Rh once they have acclimated...again with that patience, hehehe.  I appreciate all the help and info.

[MahDooRow]

5 hours ago, Sean3 said:

I will be taking your advice about leaving things be for a while.  I do have fairly good control of the room temperature that the wineador is in...@66F - 72F year round.  Since removing the Oasis (I actually just removed the foam substrate, rendering it a fan for air circulation), the humidity has dropped about 3 percentage points.  If it continues to drop, I will add some beads as you suggest, until I find the sweet spot.  It appears patience (not my virtue) is what's needed.  This may require meds. 

Incidentally, while humidity in the wineador was running at 69% - 71%, I had issues.  To wit...a RyJ and a Cuaba not only had burn issues, they also were both bitter.  So, I look forward to smoking some stock stored at a lower Rh once they have acclimated...again with that patience, hehehe.  I appreciate all the help and info.

If your temperatures range between 66F and 72F in the room where the wineador is stored I think you'll be in great shape.  Keep us posted.

[Philc2001]

13 hours ago, Sean3 said:

 Those HCM beads are interesting, I may try them when I get the humidity down around 62%.  Appreciate the advice...I love this website/forum!

I forgot to mention earlier... I have an Oasis in my end-table 300-count humidor, and I removed the foam in that thing a long time ago and replaced it with polymer water gel crystals. If you do decide to keep your Oasis I would strongly recommend you do this mod to it as the green floral foam they use is virtually useless.

You don't need much polymer gel because they expand over a 1,000 times their size when you add water to them. Once you remove all the green foam, simply fill the Oasis reservoir with distilled water, and then add about one level teaspoon of polymer gel, that should be more then plenty. Check back in 15-20 minutes and all the water should be absorbed into the polymer. If after 20 mins you still have liquid water, add another pinch of polymer gel, but I doubt you will need to. Then use it as you normally use your Oasis. After a month or more the polymer gel will dry out, and then simply add more distilled water from then on. I tend to replace the crystals every couple of years, just for the sake of keeping them clean, but really you don't need to, they should last forever. 

I got my water gel polymer crystals from a local garden shop, and the original 5-oz bag has lasted 10 years and I still have some left. Be sure to get the ones without additive. I know Amazon sells them:

https://www.amazon.com/Soil-Moist-JCD-012SM-3-Ounce-Bag/dp/B000HA93NI/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1473695773&sr=8-13&keywords=soil+moist

This is not the one I used, but basically they are all the same. This 3 oz bag should last you at least 10 years.

 

[PigFish]

Rule number 1:

You cannot have free water, liquid water or saturated water source (other than aqueous salt solutions) in a sealed humidor and not have high rH issues, problems. @Fugu pointed this out. This is of course assuming that you have no active dehumidification control. Do you have such control?

Now, at least how I am reading the thread, not in detail but scanning though, you still have some high rH issues? Correct or wrong?

I have seen some interesting scientific terms thrown around above, but here is your problem with high rH. There is simply too much captive water, free or bonded in your closed system. If the water is free water vapor, it will move into lower ErH substrates in the humidor and the problem may largely go away... If the substrate saturation is the problem, it will be feed the 'open space' and you will recognize it in your monitor relatively quickly. Saturation of the substrates (cigars and boxes) would be the larger problem.

It is time to monitor for awhile.

What is the ambient in the home?

While I am not reading each comment, I am seeing 'key' words like polymer gels... training beads etc....

NO MORE FREE WATER SOURCES FOR NOW, OR YOU GO BACKWARDS.

Observe for now. NO NEW OR OLD WATER SOURCES... Lets see what happens and I will tell you where to go to fix it (if within my abilities).

Do you have any beaded desiccant handy?

Cheers! -Piggy

[Sean3]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

Rule number 1:

You cannot have free water, liquid water or saturated water source (other than aqueous salt solutions) in a sealed humidor and not have high rH issues, problems. @Fugu pointed this out. This is of course assuming that you have no active dehumidification control. Do you have such control?

Now, at least how I am reading the thread, not in detail but scanning though, you still have some high rH issues? Correct or wrong?

I have seen some interesting scientific terms thrown around above, but here is your problem with high rH. There is simply too much captive water, free or bonded in your closed system. If the water is free water vapor, it will move into lower ErH substrates in the humidor and the problem may largely go away... If the substrate saturation is the problem, it will be feed the 'open space' and you will recognize it in your monitor relatively quickly. Saturation of the substrates (cigars and boxes) would be the larger problem.

It is time to monitor for awhile.

What is the ambient in the home?

While I am not reading each comment, I am seeing 'key' words like polymer gels... training beads etc....

NO MORE FREE WATER SOURCES FOR NOW, OR YOU GO BACKWARDS.

Observe for now. NO NEW OR OLD WATER SOURCES... Lets see what happens and I will tell you where to go to fix it (if within my abilities).

Do you have any beaded desiccant handy?

Cheers! -Piggy

Greetings Mr. Piggy.  Ambient temperature in the home ranges from @66F - 72F, any higher and I turn on the A/C.  I have no water sources inside the wineador at this time and humidity is pegged at 65%, there are no dehumidifiers involved.  Based on what I've read in various threads here on this sight, I'd like to get it a bit lower...perhaps the 62% range, I've had problems with my cigars when at 67% and above.  If by beaded desiccant, you mean "humidity beads", I do have several bags.  Thanks for the advice sir, cheers.  Sean

[Sean3]

7 hours ago, MahDooRow said:

If your temperatures range between 66F and 72F in the room where the wineador is stored I think you'll be in great shape.  Keep us posted.

Will do...Cheers.

[PigFish]

47 minutes ago, Sean3 said:

Greetings Mr. Piggy.  Ambient temperature in the home ranges from @66F - 72F, any higher and I turn on the A/C.  I have no water sources inside the wineador at this time and humidity is pegged at 65%, there are no dehumidifiers involved.  Based on what I've read in various threads here on this sight, I'd like to get it a bit lower...perhaps the 62% range, I've had problems with my cigars when at 67% and above.  If by beaded desiccant, you mean "humidity beads", I do have several bags.  Thanks for the advice sir, cheers.  Sean

What is your ambient rH (outside the humidor)?

-P

[Sean3]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

What is your ambient rH (outside the humidor)?

-P

Outside the humidor, rH in the room can vary quite a bit.  Today I observed it ranging 40% - 56%, and it can go much higher...I keep the windows open in mild weather, but have never measured ambient room humidity while running the A/C.

[PigFish]

So the humidor temperature is controlled by the ambient! Why not seek help from the ambient as well for rH?

Pick and choose times where you are present and can monitor the rH of the room. Open the door in cycles and let the humidor feed the ambient water.

Frankly I can come up with all kinds of complex solutions, none of which "I" would use as long as I have a sympathetic (net rH negative) environment. Air exchanges make real moves in humidors, just ask anyone in a net rH high environment. Simple is best and this is an easy way to make adjustments.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Sean3]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

So the humidor temperature is controlled by the ambient! Why not seek help from the ambient as well for rH?

Pick and choose times where you are present and can monitor the rH of the room. Open the door in cycles and let the humidor feed the ambient water.

Frankly I can come up with all kinds of complex solutions, none of which "I" would use as long as I have a sympathetic (net rH negative) environment. Air exchanges make real moves in humidors, just ask anyone in a net rH high environment. Simple is best and this is an easy way to make adjustments.

Cheers! -Piggy

Simple suits me just fine as I'm several IQ points short of Theoretical Physicist material, lol.  Appreciate your time and advice, and will put it to good use.  Cheers, Sean.

[earthson]

Beads.

 

QED

[Sean3]

19 hours ago, Sean3 said:

Simple suits me just fine as I'm several IQ points short of Theoretical Physicist material, lol.  Appreciate your time and advice, and will put it to good use.  Cheers, Sean.

Update:  Using the air exchange method you suggested, the rH inside the humidor has gone down to 64%!  It is holding 64% even though ambient humidity has shot up to 75%.  I will continue to use this method until I achieve my goal of 62%.  Simple, is indeed the best choice often times.  As an aside Mr. Piggy, do you have a website or link showing the products you offer?  Thanks, and cheers...Sean.