cheating in sport

[Ken Gargett]

saw a report re the women's soccer semi between japan and england. still on apparently, and i have no interest in who wins to be honest, but i gather japan got a penalty that might or might not have been from an offence in the box and then england got a penalty for what was apparently an utterly blatant dive (i think that crap is the blight of soccer and one reason i can't get as excited about it as i might otherwise).

okay, the player got away with it and it might mean that england end up going through to a world cup final instead of japan, so in the scheme of things, reasonably major.

of course, refs make errors.

but...

should there be some sort of tribunal - i am not talking this specific game or even this sport but in general - which each sport would have to set up (if it had a problem - probably far less relevant for golf or tennis, for example) to monitor this and impose penalties? do we just leave it and say tough luck?

should outcomes be able to be amended and penalties imposed on teams as well as players?

if a player is discovered to have been using drugs to gain an unfair advantage, they will be heavily punished. why is this so much different? to me, this dive was just another form of cheating.

i've always been puzzled by the underarm reaction (a controversial moment in cricket for those not familiar). it was unfortunate and unnecessary but it was not illegal under the rules at the time. yet the bile and vitriol still spewed forth by many, continues. and yet around the same time, the nation who was on the wrong end of it, had a rugby hero - andy haden - proudly declare, in his autobiography, how he took a dive in the final lineout of the tour (v scotland, i think), to gain a penalty so they could kick the goal to win the match. without which, they would not have won the grand slam. it was deliberate cheating and yet it was celebrated. he, of course, is far from the only person to do something like that and many countries are just as culpable.

cricket - it is considered the height of cheating and poor sportsmanship to claim a catch that did not carry. yet in every game ever played, fielding sides will appeal for lbw's and caught behinds that they know are not out and there is no issue with that at all.

wondering if anyone has any thoughts on all this.

[avaldes]

I don't know Cricket or Rugby well enough to comment. But in American Football and Baseball the respective leagues dole out punishment all the time for infractions like poor sportsmanship, drug violations and inappropriate behavior off the field. Both sports have also embraced instant replay for review of close calls.

Formula One has race stewards who levy similar punitive measures during the course of the season. And professional Cycling has to step in all the time for cheating and doping. So I don't think it is unreasonable to ask this of other sports.

[Ken Gargett]

rugby and rugby league seem more accepting of this. a good thing.

beyond me why soccer officials don't simply set up a match review committee of some sort to review diving (other stuff if necessary). first time, ban the player for a week, second time a month and third time 6 months. it would stamp it out real quick. clubs would not tolerate having their horrendously expensive players sitting on the sidelines for extended periods because of it.

[JohnS]

The culture of some sports varies greatly with the sport and the fans following it. For example, in 2006, Australian Football fans couldn't get over themselves when Lucas Neill gave away a penalty to Fabio Grasso to allow Italy to win 1-0. Italy went on to defeat France in the final, as we know. In Europe and South America, doing these things, if you can get away with it, is lauded.

In cricket, the Umpire has final authority on what goes on in the field, so lbw's and caught-behinds depend on the umpire's opinion of whether the batsman should be dismissed. But, if a player claims a catch, in their opinion, and later it is found that they were wrong, then that player can potentially ruin their career. (Greg Dyer - 1987 Australia vs New Zealand, for example) I wonder if this paradoxical anamoly is because in this instance a player claiming a catch could be viewed as having the authority of an Umpire and etiquette-wise, in cricket, this runs counter to the way the game was founded.

[Ken Gargett]

The culture of some sports varies greatly with the sport and the fans following it. For example, in 2006, Australian Football fans couldn't get over themselves when Lucas Neill gave away a penalty to Fabio Grasso to allow Italy to win 1-0. Italy went on to defeat France in the final, as we know. In Europe and South America, doing these things, if you can get away with it, is lauded.

In cricket, the Umpire has final authority on what goes on in the field, so lbw's and caught-behinds depend on the umpire's opinion of whether the batsman should be dismissed. But, if a player claims a catch, in their opinion, and later it is found that they were wrong, then that player can potentially ruin their career. (Greg Dyer - 1987 Australia vs New Zealand, for example) I wonder if this paradoxical anamoly is because in this instance a player claiming a catch could be viewed as having the authority of an Umpire and etiquette-wise, in cricket, this runs counter to the way the game was founded.

agree with a lot of that.

glad you said neill gave away that penalty. going down in front of a player in the box insane, even if that player hammed it up. i've heard so many aussies scream about how we were robbed etc etc. if anyone cares to remember, italy had ten men almost the entire game from an absurd red card that should never have been given. only reason we were still in it was schwarzer's great keeping and some extremely lucky stops. we didn't have a shot on goal.

cricket is curious. always believed that there was no possible way you would not know if you caught the catch or not but then (i was a keeper) i had one or two where i genuinely didn't know. you dive, jam your glove under the ball but did it clip the ground? both times i appealed but told the ump i had no idea. both not given and i had no real problem with that (as opposed to the seemingly endless ones not given i knew were out!).

[perkinke]

I have never understood why soccer leagues will penalize violent conduct if it's spotted on a recording but they won't for diving; in my opinion the diving harms the game more than a stray elbow or a chomp on the arm. In the 1998 World Cup the refs had instructions to be harsh on diving and it cleaned the game up a bit, but it's gotten bad now. As a lifelong soccer lover and player I hate it when my own teams benefit from a dive, it's simply poor sportsmanship, that so top players condone it as part of the game is appalling. I agree a 3 game suspension for diving, similar to a straight red, would clean it up in a hurry. Will that ever happen? Well, only when someone with a love of the game bribes Fifa to do it!

[Overproof]

NBA officials call flops now and dish out fines in $5000 increments but considering how much these dudes are paid it's bugger all in the scheme of things. It's something though.

A difficult thing trying to deem what's ok as 'limited contact' in some sports, what's over the top and what the players are trying to sell as fouls.

[CaptainQuintero]

I wouldn't go as far as to say gamesmanship is lauded in Europe, it's the bane of all football fans in the UK, talk to two fans about what is wrong with the game and one if not both will say that diving and cheating etc is the main problem ruining the sport.

Fifa and the dubious man currently in charge don't want anything that will change the feel of the game, eg anything that would break up the flow of a game. It's taken 20 years to get video calls for goal line technology to come in after years of ridicule.

Hopefully the new fifa that's coming will change a lot of things

[wabashcr]

Ken- Do you remember when Arsenal had to play Celtic in a Champions League Playoff to get into the group stages? And Eduardo took what looked to be a blatant dive, which turned the tie for Arsenal?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xac6s6_arsenal-1-0-celtic-penalty-eduardo_sport

When this happened, simulation was reviewable after the fact, and UEFA charged Eduardo with diving. He was given a 2 match suspension. Arsenal appealed, and UEFA's appeals body overturned the suspension. Because the video angles suggested there may have been some slight contact, they couldn't definitively prove it was a dive.

I'm an Arsenal supporter, but that was a blatant dive. If they can't make the charges stick on something that obvious, I don't think we have much chance of seeing these post-match tribunals having much effect. As far as I know the governing bodies still reserve the authority to review simulation after the fact, but I don't recall any retroactive disciplinary measures taken since the Eduardo incident. Of course if the referee deems a dive to have occurred in a game, a yellow card is issued.

FWIW, the NBA reviews incidents like this after all of their games, and fine players $5000 for "flopping." The public shaming aspect of it seems to have helped head off what was turning into a pretty big problem a few years back. I think you're seeing that in football as well, where the stigma and backlash attached to being a diver (ahem, Ashley Young) is helping reduce its prevalence.

[sengjc]

...where the stigma and backlash attached to being a diver (ahem, Ashley Young) is helping reduce its prevalence.

Better than Italian soccer players?

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[Orion21]

The acting in Men's soccer is why I rarely watch it. It's so pathetic to see grown men diving, acting mortally wounded or just plain faking contact and injury to get an edge of some sort. But corruption and cheating seems to be inbred in the sport up to the highest levels, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I honestly don't know why American sports is so much more strict on their players? Maybe it's because they identified how it could hurt their brands and put a stop to it, while punishing the offenders (like the NBA example above).

I think a great addition to soccer officiating would be to allow the line judges to be part of the call when it comes to these flops etc turning into penalties. Let them tell the official that it was a flop and yellow card the offender. That would be a step in the right direction.

[Ken Gargett]

Ken- Do you remember when Arsenal had to play Celtic in a Champions League Playoff to get into the group stages? And Eduardo took what looked to be a blatant dive, which turned the tie for Arsenal?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xac6s6_arsenal-1-0-celtic-penalty-eduardo_sport

When this happened, simulation was reviewable after the fact, and UEFA charged Eduardo with diving. He was given a 2 match suspension. Arsenal appealed, and UEFA's appeals body overturned the suspension. Because the video angles suggested there may have been some slight contact, they couldn't definitively prove it was a dive.

I'm an Arsenal supporter, but that was a blatant dive. If they can't make the charges stick on something that obvious, I don't think we have much chance of seeing these post-match tribunals having much effect. As far as I know the governing bodies still reserve the authority to review simulation after the fact, but I don't recall any retroactive disciplinary measures taken since the Eduardo incident. Of course if the referee deems a dive to have occurred in a game, a yellow card is issued.

FWIW, the NBA reviews incidents like this after all of their games, and fine players $5000 for "flopping." The public shaming aspect of it seems to have helped head off what was turning into a pretty big problem a few years back. I think you're seeing that in football as well, where the stigma and backlash attached to being a diver (ahem, Ashley Young) is helping reduce its prevalence.

yes - extremely embarrassing when your player does it and worse, of course, when an opposition does.

it would be so easy to wipe it from the game. you'd have players and clubs scream for a year and then everyone would fall in line and you'd rarely see it again.

[tmac77]

Football is in dire need of post game review and serious repercussions for dives, flops and other various embellishments of fouls by the players. I am also not a fan of some baseball players actions. Similar to cricket they will often try to sell a catch in the outfield. One of my bigest pet peeves in baseball is runners sliding into second cleats up and not even trying to touch the base in order to break up a double play. Total lack of sportsmanship and a blatant attempt to injure the opposing player.

[Ken Gargett]

Similar to cricket they will often try to sell a catch in the outfield.

very rare to actually see this. they will definitely do it for caught behind where they try and convince the ump that the batsman has nicked it but, for reasons unknown, they very rarely try and convince an ump they have caught the ball if they have not. seems a fine line and no idea why. one has become completely acceptable. the other not.

[CaptainQuintero]

It is nice to see simulation starting to get cracked down on in the EPL, a few years ago you saw no punishment, now you see a booking each weekend.

The trouble is when the top team in the game do it non stop, crowd around the ref and intimidate him trying to get other players sent off it sets the standard for all kids and every other team/player.

I'm looking at you Barca!

[wabashcr]

The trouble is when the top team in the game do it non stop, crowd around the ref and intimidate him trying to get other players sent off it sets the standard for all kids and every other team/player.

This, in my opinion, is becoming a much worse problem than diving. Every big call now, you see this happen, and it's quite ugly. It would take about one weekend's worth of matches to get this out of the game. Just issue yellow cards to anyone other than the offending player and club captains who complain like that, and it won't happen anymore. Announce ahead of time that you're going to crack down, and that element is gone from the game. I see it in college and high school matches now in the US. It's a plague on the game.

[wabashcr]

yes - extremely embarrassing when your player does it and worse, of course, when an opposition does.

it would be so easy to wipe it from the game. you'd have players and clubs scream for a year and then everyone would fall in line and you'd rarely see it again.

I think the problem is the gray area. Blatant dives, I think, are on the decline already. Mostly what you see now are players feeling some level of contact, and simply going down too easily. That's kind of what happened with Eduardo, and it's what happened with the England girl in the OP. And the authorities have determined that if there's any amount of contact, however slight, they can't definitively say the player dived. It becomes a judgment call as to whether the player went down too easily, with the "I know it when I see it" standard. The players and clubs just won't go for it, and the FAs don't feel comfortable using that standard.

[shlomo]

Football is in dire need of post game review and serious repercussions for dives, flops and other various embellishments of fouls by the players. I am also not a fan of some baseball players actions. Similar to cricket they will often try to sell a catch in the outfield. One of my bigest pet peeves in baseball is runners sliding into second cleats up and not even trying to touch the base in order to break up a double play. Total lack of sportsmanship and a blatant attempt to injure the opposing player.

Most often it is NOT an attempt to injure, rather an attempt to intimidate. I do it all the time, and appreciate when a teammate does it for me. Do everything you can to improve your standing and your teams chances of victory. Nothing wrong there.

[tmac77]

Most often it is NOT an attempt to injure, rather an attempt to intimidate. I do it all the time, and appreciate when a teammate does it for me. Do everything you can to improve your standing and your teams chances of victory. Nothing wrong there.

I have to strongly disagree with you on this one Shlomo. If a teamate of mine went cleats up into second with no attempt to actually touch the base I would give him a colorfully worded dressing down. Total lack of sportsmanship. Even if there is no deliberate attempt to injure, the likelihood of injuring the defensive player is high. IMO any player that does this should be automatically ejected from the game.

[Ken Gargett]

I think the problem is the gray area. Blatant dives, I think, are on the decline already. Mostly what you see now are players feeling some level of contact, and simply going down too easily. That's kind of what happened with Eduardo, and it's what happened with the England girl in the OP. And the authorities have determined that if there's any amount of contact, however slight, they can't definitively say the player dived. It becomes a judgment call as to whether the player went down too easily, with the "I know it when I see it" standard. The players and clubs just won't go for it, and the FAs don't feel comfortable using that standard.

isn't 90% of what a ref or ump does a 'judgement cal'? understand what you say but in the end, it is up to the authorities to step in. if they won't, then the players will keep it up and who can blame them.