Yet another bourbon thread

[SofaKing]

Another member suggested I post a new topic on this. Besides the multiple answers of 4 Roses,woodruff, Bulliet, etc which seem to be most individuals daily or go to pour.

Let me preface I dont drink bourbon but for starters is Pappy/Rip really all that? Is it possibly just a solid bourbon that has been over hyped and created a mass demand on the premise of rare/limited availability?

The reason I ask is that I have friends and family whom drink bourbon and on the holidays I like to try and take a stab on getting something above average or unique/rare. I have in the past purchased Blantons, Willetts Pot still, Jeffersons Reserve and Jeffersons Ocean. All well received with a preference towards the Jeffersons. My ultimate question for the bourbon drinkers what bottle would excite or surprise you if a host suddenly brought it out. Budget would be 200$ USD or less and reasonably obtainable (unlike Pappy).

[JohnS]

Please keep in mind that Australians pay more tax for their liquor and cigars, so the following suggestions may be even less than $US100, whereas in Australia they are over that mark. I would get very excited if a bottle of Blanton's Gold Edition (103 proof) or Knob Creek 9 Year Old Single Barrel Reserve Bourbon (120 proof) were brought out.

[spicycorona]

Colonel Taylor Small Batch

I was also surprised at the Jefferson's Ocean. It sounds incredibly gimmicky, and in my experience, booze gimmicks do not mean good. So very good one.

Speaking of Jefferson's, I would also be very surprised if an early release bottle of Jefferson's Presidential showed up...but not easily obtainable, or not even available at all idk.

I realize people get turned off with PVW due to the rarity of it. But a few of them are some of the best bourbons available. So, limit release all you like it deserves it. And at 80 and 130 retail for the 15 and 20 respectively, they are not overpriced. Retailers price gouge, but people still buy it. Not me. A few bottles were obtained by a local liquor store these past holidays, 300, 500, and 800 respectively for the 15, 20 and 23. And they flew off the shelf. Incredibly stupid.

[garbandz]

There is no Pappy Van Winkle distillery.Never has been.

It has been made by a known distillery whose product is readily available at a competitive price.

Probably if you drink bourbon you have tried it.............

[poorman]

There's a great docushow on AUD running called "Bourbontucky"

Well worth the watch if you get the chance.

Just tried Four Roses small batch last week, really enjoyed it, and I'm not much into Bourbon.

[CaptainQuintero]

There is no Pappy Van Winkle distillery.Never has been.

 

It has been made by a known distillery whose product is readily available at a competitive price.

 

Probably if you drink bourbon you have tried it............. 

Buffalo Trace right?

[poorman]

Buffalo Trace right?

Correct

[SofaKing]

I was also surprised at the Jefferson's Ocean. It sounds incredibly gimmicky, and in my experience, booze gimmicks do not mean good. So very good one.

Speaking of Jefferson's, I would also be very surprised if an early release bottle of Jefferson's Presidential showed up...but not easily obtainable, or not even available at all idk.

I realize people get turned off with PVW due to the rarity of it. But a few of them are some of the best bourbons available. So, limit release all you like it deserves it. And at 80 and 130 retail for the 15 and 20 respectively, they are not overpriced. Retailers price gouge, but people still buy it. Not me. A few bottles were obtained by a local liquor store these past holidays, 300, 500, and 800 respectively for the 15, 20 and 23. And they flew off the shelf. Incredibly stupid.

They said pretty much the same about the Ocean, gimmicky but well executed. I looked for the 17 or 18 year reserve but cant find it and was told made by or with the same stills/casks as Pappy...has a name associated with it but recall at the moment.

if I could find any of the Pappys for those prices I would give it a go however as you stated the two times I saw them they were 400+ and spoken for, pass.

There is no Pappy Van Winkle distillery.Never has been.

It has been made by a known distillery

Yes that I did know.

[Skyfall]

Everyday pour - Buffalo Trace or Gentlemen Jack (I know it's not bourbon)

[NMJoe]

EH Taylor Barrel Proof is pretty good and fairly easy to acquire, and is usually found in the $70-$80 range. I do like the BT Antique Collection, especially George T. Stagg, but it's quite difficult for me to find in backwoods NM, although I did happen to obtain one bottle of the 2014, which remains unopened.

Cheers!

[TM-US]

There is no Pappy Van Winkle distillery.Never has been.

It has been made by a known distillery whose product is readily available at a competitive price.

Probably if you drink bourbon you have tried it.............

Okay, so tell me what Buffalo Trace / Sazerac product is comparable and with the same or very similar composition?

I know which ones are the same mashbill, but none are comparable.

I'm specifically excluding VWFRR.

[SofaKing]

Thanks for the feedback, I will look this weekend to see whats available and go from there.

[lostsoulcamero]

Stagg jr is great around $80 if you can find

I also enjoy bookers hard pressedto find better at $60 price point and easy to find

[Loki]

My every day pour is either Makers or Woodford Reserve. Both are reasonably priced.

I have had a few bottles of George T. and all have been very good.

My buddy's eyes always light up when the T. comes out to play.

[StumpyJoe]

Okay, so tell me what Buffalo Trace / Sazerac product is comparable and with the same or very similar composition?

I know which ones are the same mashbill, but none are comparable.

I'm specifically excluding VWFRR.

WL Weller 107 or the 12 year old. They are in the $20-30 range and are the same mashbill as the Pappy bourbons. Weller is a wheated bourbon, as is Pappy, and the aged Van Winkle are now cherry picked barrels from the Weller stock. The Pappy barrels used to be old stock from the closed Stitzel-Weller distillery (the distillery that Pappy Van Winkle actually ran). When the distillery closed Julian Van Winkle bought out most of the barrels (which then became Pappy Van Winkle Bourbon). The remaining barrels were bought by one individual who sold his stock as Jefferson Presidential. My understanding is the only Stitzel-Weller bourbon left is the Pappy 23 year old as the rest have been bottled and sold (heck, even the 23 year old may be Buffalo Trace/Weller mashbill by now).

So if you're looking for something that has a similar taste profile I would recommend the Weller line. Course, I haven't seen any Weller 12 on the shelves in a year and a half.

Good luck on your search.

[TM-US]

WL Weller 107 or the 12 year old. They are in the $20-30 range and are the same mashbill as the Pappy bourbons. Weller is a wheated bourbon, as is Pappy, and the aged Van Winkle are now cherry picked barrels from the Weller stock. The Pappy barrels used to be old stock from the closed Stitzel-Weller distillery (the distillery that Pappy Van Winkle actually ran). When the distillery closed Julian Van Winkle bought out most of the barrels (which then became Pappy Van Winkle Bourbon). The remaining barrels were bought by one individual who sold his stock as Jefferson Presidential. My understanding is the only Stitzel-Weller bourbon left is the Pappy 23 year old as the rest have been bottled and sold (heck, even the 23 year old may be Buffalo Trace/Weller mashbill by now).

So if you're looking for something that has a similar taste profile I would recommend the Weller line. Course, I haven't seen any Weller 12 on the shelves in a year and a half.

Good luck on your search.

I take it you're talking about Mr. Kulsveen, who bottled Jefferson's Presidential Reserve 17 and 18 yr. (under batch 16).

I don't find PVW 15, 20 or 23 to be much like Weller 12 or 107, despite the same mashbill. I think the barrel choice and the position in the rickhouse has a lot more influence on flavor profile than you make it out to be.

For the same reason, I don't find those two Jefferson's to be that much like PVW, although they same the same kind of woodiness as PVW 20.

I think William Larue Weller is far superior to ORVW 10 or Lot B, and my favorite of the Buffalo Trace wheated bourbons.

[fokker4me]

Buffalo Trace right?

Well yes and no. Buffalo Trace currently make the new Juice and most expressions. The 23 starting next year year will be 100% Buffalo Trace, but any 2014 and under laser code bottle could have old Stetzel Weller Juice or some Bernheim juice as well. The ORVW Rye is still a vatted product of 50/50 Old Meadly (Owensboro), and Cream of Kentucky Rye from the old Bernheim distillery blended together. Sazerac is just the partner in production and distribution for Julian Van Winkle whom on his own has not distilled since 1991.

[SofaKing]

Awesome feed back, I do appreciate it. I think my hunt will be leaning towards william l Weller and Jeffersons 17 or 18 (though I know they are long gone).

[StumpyJoe]

I take it you're talking about Mr. Kulsveen, who bottled Jefferson's Presidential Reserve 17 and 18 yr. (under batch 16).

I don't find PVW 15, 20 or 23 to be much like Weller 12 or 107, despite the same mashbill. I think the barrel choice and the position in the rickhouse has a lot more influence on flavor profile than you make it out to be.

For the same reason, I don't find those two Jefferson's to be that much like PVW, although they same the same kind of woodiness as PVW 20.

I think William Larue Weller is far superior to ORVW 10 or Lot B, and my favorite of the Buffalo Trace wheated bourbons.

Perhaps I didn't give an adequate explanation. Julian Van Winkle created the Pappy line because of two things: 1) he had first purchase rights to the Stitzel-Weller stocks and 2) he understood and sought out the barrels that would create the flavor profiles he envisioned for different Pappy bottlings.

Mr. Kulsveen was able to buy the remaining barrels...the ones not chosen by Julian. Same mashbill and most likely they would have been destined for bottles of Old Fitzgerald had the Stitzel-Weller distillery not folded.

All bourbon...even made with the same mashbill will have variability. That is why the majority of whiskies are a blend of numerous barrels to match a desired flavor profile. Does position in a rick house make a difference? Of course, that is part of it. That is called cherry picking. Just as William Larue Weller are barrels not selected by Julian for the Pappy line. Still an excellent wheated bourbon...just doesn't match the flavor profile for Pappy.

[TM-US]

Perhaps I didn't give an adequate explanation. Julian Van Winkle created the Pappy line because of two things: 1) he had first purchase rights to the Stitzel-Weller stocks and 2) he understood and sought out the barrels that would create the flavor profiles he envisioned for different Pappy bottlings.

Mr. Kulsveen was able to buy the remaining barrels...the ones not chosen by Julian. Same mashbill and most likely they would have been destined for bottles of Old Fitzgerald had the Stitzel-Weller distillery not folded.

All bourbon...even made with the same mashbill will have variability. That is why the majority of whiskies are a blend of numerous barrels to match a desired flavor profile. Does position in a rick house make a difference? Of course, that is part of it. That is called cherry picking. Just as William Larue Weller are barrels not selected by Julian for the Pappy line. Still an excellent wheated bourbon...just doesn't match the flavor profile for Pappy.

My point goes back to what was originally posted. The flavor of any of the regular Buffalo Trace offerings is not really the same as the PVW stuff, even with the same mashbill. So just because it comes from the same place, it is not necessarily comparable.

The same reason why Elmer T. Lee, Rock Hill Farms and Blanton's do not taste the same. That is why I brought up rickhouse positioning as an important variable in how the end product tastes.

For that matter, Old Fitzgerald prime, Very Old Fitzgerald and Very Special Old Fitzgerald have a very similar if not identical mashbill and recipe as PVW, even though now that product comes from a different company. The origin is that of a Stitzel-Weller product made by Pappy Van Winkle himself. That said, they do not taste like PVW. Similar perhaps, but not the same.

I brought up William Larue Weller because, as you know, it comes from the exact same distillate as PVW. I personally prefer WLW to PVW, regardless of the age difference.

[TM-US]

Furthermore, you mention Weller 107 and Weller 12 yr. as comparable to PVW in your own post. That is the inference I got from your reply. If that is not what you meant to say, then this whole dialogue is unnecessary, because we both seem to be making the same point.

[StumpyJoe]

Furthermore, you mention Weller 107 and Weller 12 yr. as comparable to PVW in your own post. That is the inference I got from your reply. If that is not what you meant to say, then this whole dialogue is unnecessary, because we both seem to be making the same point.

I think you are correct, as you graciously are pointing out we both are making the same point.

I made the suggestion to the original poster of Weller 107 and 12 year because of the same mashbill. Furthermore, me and a friend conducted a blind tasting of wheated whiskeys (Weller 107, Weller 12, Larceny, Makers Mark, and Makers 46) and we both agreed that the Weller line was superior (in particular the Wellers had serious legs and better mouthfeel than the competition). With that said those Wellers are not Pappy...but it gets you in the right direction and they are great wheated bourbons.

As with most things in life , if you want the taste and experience of a particular item...you have to get that particular item. Like Porsche says, "There is no substitute."

[StumpyJoe]

My point goes back to what was originally posted. The flavor of any of the regular Buffalo Trace offerings is not really the same as the PVW stuff, even with the same mashbill. So just because it comes from the same place, it is not necessarily comparable.

The same reason why Elmer T. Lee, Rock Hill Farms and Blanton's do not taste the same. That is why I brought up rickhouse positioning as an important variable in how the end product tastes.

For that matter, Old Fitzgerald prime, Very Old Fitzgerald and Very Special Old Fitzgerald have a very similar if not identical mashbill and recipe as PVW, even though now that product comes from a different company. The origin is that of a Stitzel-Weller product made by Pappy Van Winkle himself. That said, they do not taste like PVW. Similar perhaps, but not the same.

I brought up William Larue Weller because, as you know, it comes from the exact same distillate as PVW. I personally prefer WLW to PVW, regardless of the age difference.

Agreed. Now on to an important question I have for you. WLW, at least the last bottling, was 140 proof...how do you drink it? I've never had it but it seems like high-test jet fuel. I've had Bookers several times and even at 125-130 proof it seemed smooth...but I've always had it on the rocks. Quite curious.

[TM-US]

I think you are correct, as you graciously are pointing out we both are making the same point.

I made the suggestion to the original poster of Weller 107 and 12 year because of the same mashbill. Furthermore, me and a friend conducted a blind tasting of wheated whiskeys (Weller 107, Weller 12, Larceny, Makers Mark, and Makers 46) and we both agreed that the Weller line was superior (in particular the Wellers had serious legs and better mouthfeel than the competition). With that said those Wellers are not Pappy...but it gets you in the right direction and they are great wheated bourbons.

As with most things in life , if you want the taste and experience of a particular item...you have to get that particular item. Like Porsche says, "There is no substitute."

I agree with you that the cheaper Weller products are definitely very good wheated bourbons. I strongly prefer the Weller 12 over the 107 or the Special Reserve, though. I did not find Larceny to be to my liking and I am not a fan of Maker's Mark. I thought Makers 46 was plain horrible. When you talk wheated bourbon, I thought the Old Fitzgerald line wasn't bad, although not as good as Weller.

My favorites in the wheat category:

William Larue Weller

Parker's Heritage 8th release (technically straight wheat whiskey, not bourbon, as it is aged Bernheim wheat whiskey)

ORVW 10 (depending on the year- 12 and 13 were better than 14)

Lot B (depending on the year- 14 was excellent)

[TM-US]

Agreed. Now on to an important question I have for you. WLW, at least the last bottling, was 140 proof...how do you drink it? I've never had it but it seems like high-test jet fuel. I've had Bookers several times and even at 125-130 proof it seemed smooth...but I've always had it on the rocks. Quite curious.

I don't necessarily have a problem with high proof, as George T. Stagg this year was 138.1 proof and lovely. I admit the WLW this year was a bit too hot- add (literally) a couple or three drops of water and it is wonderful. Neat, it is too hot. I won't put bourbon or really any whisky on ice, as I don't like my whisk(e)y chilled. The 14 release was soooo good, though- even though it is too hot to drink neat, the finish goes on forever. I wish there was more of this available to me- WLW is the hardest to find in my area out of all of the BTAC releases. I won't pay the $300+ that it costs to buy on the secondary market, as there are plenty of single malts that I would rather spend money on in that range.

I also learned recently that I can't comfortably drink 151 proof rum, no matter how tasty (Lost Spirits Cuban Style Rum)- watered that one down with a big splash of water and it still remained flavorful and drinkable, no burn.

The 140 proof 1st release Stagg Jr. is also too hot and needs some water, as does Elijah Craig 12 yr. Barrel Proof releases in the 140 proof range.