The Theoretical "Benefit" of Leaving White Mould on Cigars

[Maplepie]

First let's define white mould. The best fit I see for cigar white mould would be the one listed here in plain English.

Click the image for a science adventure:

As stated, Aspergillus is found everywhere in nature and is good at decomposing large biological substances into simpler biological packages to be used as a fuel sorce. This is the primary goal of the mycelium body of any fungus is to secrete enzymes to decompose the main body of the organic host.

I have never seen white mould actually disentigrating cigars or leaving blots of space in the cigar's wrappers.

I believe the general consensus on ageing cigars is that we should allow a natural biodegration of large tannic molecules/ heavy oils to break down into simpler molecules that won't leave such heavy tars upon combustion. This would make it smoother instead of heavier and ass-kicking.

So far, what I see is the following:

- White mould does not breed bacteria. Therefore, anyone with a healthy immune system and regular respratory conditions is safe from Aspergillus. It is also not as disgusting as it looks. [Microorganisms in home and indoor work environments: Diversity, Health Impacts, Investigation and control. Flanning Brian, et al. Germany. 2000.]

- White mould enzymes do not naturally break down aromatic compounds (the flavour components of cigars) in normal plants and work along side fermentation proceses (The old 3-oxoadipate pathway revisited: New insights in the catabolism of aromatics in the saprophytic fungus Aspergillus nidulans. Martins, Tiago M et al. Portugual. 2003)

- White mould decomposes large alcohols into shorter, aromatic alcohols with odours. Similar to decomposition proceses in waiting for cigars to decompose. (Odor-active alcohols from the fungal transformation of alpha-farnesene. Krings, U et al. Germany. 2006.)

This leads me to think...

*Would white mould actually SPEED UP the ageing process on cigars?*

Supporting Information:

Mycelium - Vegatative growth of the fungus that springs roots to attach and feed off its host. Also releases spores.

Host - Any dead organic material (mostly plants) - eg: logs, cigars, your house's foundation (wood)

Enzymes - large protein-based molecules that perform multiple biological proceses. These ones focus on decomposition of large molecules into smaller molecules.

[earthson]

I've got some experience in growing culinary mushrooms, i.e.: controlled mold growth. Perhaps it is time I buy a box of cigars, introduce Aspergillus to half, place them in identical humi environments, and check them for aging status every year?

This is very interesting - especially considering the mold/plume/bloom controversy. It would explain why, regardless of the identity of the white crystalline fuzz (whether mold or a byproduct of the aging process), cigars that show this characteristic also tend to show the subjective qualities of being "well-aged" or at least "aged."

You've been doing your homework, haven't you?

[earthson]

Of course, you're probably referring to this:

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=121663

which looks less than palatable.

[Maplepie]

I've got some experience in growing culinary mushrooms, i.e.: controlled mold growth. Perhaps it is time I buy a box of cigars, introduce Aspergillus to half, place them in identical humi environments, and check them for aging status every year?

You've been doing your homework, haven't you?

I was planning on doing this with NCs which have higher (noticable) concentrations of heavy, aromatic, and tannic molecules. Bit more consistent with rolling, too.

The only thing that erks me with experimentation with cigars is Cuba's inability to remain consistent. That eliminates a full possibility of control groups and therefore the scientific method.

No homework... Just a lot of time at work. Think of it this way: I got PAID [for] posting this thread

Of course, you're probably referring to this:

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=121663

which looks less than palatable.

This looks less than palatable because we have evolved to think these things look less than palatable. White mould normally means there's some decomposition going on. Decomposition is ripe with bacteria all sorts of places and means it's not fresh.

But cigars in reality have little harmful bacteria colonies on them (due to the ammonia, nicotine, fermentation, etc).

In reality, I've done my research and want to sincerely consider subjugating my cigars to MORE colonies than the pictures in that thread in order to [theoretically] increase ageing of the cigars...

[Smallclub]

This is very interesting - especially considering the mold/plume/bloom controversy. It would explain why, regardless of the identity of the white crystalline fuzz (whether mold or a byproduct of the aging process), cigars that show this characteristic also tend to show the subjective qualities of being "well-aged" or at least "aged."

What are the evidences that would support these assertions?

Plume and mold are two completely different phenomena, I can't see why both would have the same beneficial effect (yet to prove anyway).

[earthson]

What are the evidences that would support these assertions?

My own suggestive... I mean subjective experience with plume!

[earthson]

I was planning on doing this with NCs which have higher (noticable) concentrations of heavy, aromatic, and tannic molecules. Bit more consistent with rolling, too.

The only thing that erks me with experimentation with cigars is Cuba's inability to remain consistent. That eliminates a full possibility of control groups and therefore the scientific method.

So I guess you'd want something relatively fresh rolled to have the most substrate for the mold to work with - not something that has already lost a lot of the tannins & heavier compounds? Now you just have to find NC which are known to age well (which leaves a small population, IMO)

Jeremy, if you figured something out with this, it wouldn't catch on with the average joe who knows/cares little about aging potential, but you could give H&F a run for their money in regards to their aging program!

[Maplepie]

it wouldn't catch on with the average joe who knows/cares little about aging potential, but you could give H&F a run for their money in regards to their aging program!

People here, there, and everywhere have [ummm.... "gawked"] at my unorthodox methods of approaching cigar, pipes, and tobacco in general. If this does seem to work, it will have to be a NOTICABLE change (ie. 25%+ quicker ageing) for people to actually do this. Who the hell wants to have an entire humidor filled with diseased-looking cigars? (besides various merchants who claim it to be 'plume' of course)

There is a very low chance this will catch on with anyone. Specifically since we as humans have evolved to find mould revolting. But it does seem like a fun and moderately practical thing to investigate.

[earthson]

For all of my interest in controlled beneficial fungi growth - and cigars! - I've never even considered this angle. Next box of DC I buy might also see me getting a small petri of Aspergillus and a test Tupperware.

Any thoughts on the Aspergillus species that you're thinking of? Penicillium or just an undifferentiated spp?

[Smallclub]

How are you going to control the growth of the mold? If you don't brush it up it will cover the cigar, and then it will enter the cigar…

And when you brush it, you don't know if it will come back ever…

[Maplepie]

For all of my interest in controlled beneficial fungi growth - and cigars! - I've never even considered this angle. Next box of DC I buy might also see me getting a small petri of Aspergillus and a test Tupperware.

Any thoughts on the Aspergillus species that you're thinking of? Penicillium or just an undifferentiated spp?

It would just be whatever is floating around your house... literally.

To the best of my knowledge, the white mould growing on people's cigars stems from spores coming from natural introduction. The spores arrive on your cigars from the farms of Cuba and from the cabbage you ate last night that stuck to your hands and went into your humidor.

I'm not in the business of separating species of mould... Nor do I think it would be particularily relevant (may be wrong)

How are you going to control the growth of the mold? If you don't brush it up it will cover the cigar, and then it will enter the cigar…

And when you brush it, you don't know if it will come back ever…

Very good question. I know a few biologists who carry their thesis working on sponges. Perhaps they'll have ideas. But to my current knowledge, I am dubious whether the white mould can enter cigars.

The original idea is that putting cigars in 72-76% RH would be enough to stimulate the growth of the spores.

[Smallclub]

But to my current knowledge, I am dubious whether the white mould can enter cigars.

Of course it can, it enters through the foot.

[Maplepie]

Of course it can, it enters through the foot.

Ah! That's what you mean. I've yet to design the experiment... In fact, i've yet to finalise the theory!

[earthson]

How are you going to control the growth of the mold? If you don't brush it up it will cover the cigar, and then it will enter the cigar…

And when you brush it, you don't know if it will come back ever…

Like growing any fungi, temperature and RH are crucial. For a quick spawn run, you adjust temp and RH to give the spawn its sweet spot. Likewise, when the substrate is colonized, you can alter RH and temp to induce fruiting (for culinaries, at any rate). This is why you can buy Shiitakes at your local market year-round, rather than only twice a year. Indoor growers allow the logs, chips, sawdust blocks, or whatever to recupe after a flush, and then raise the temp for a few days and then lower it to ~55 F while maintaining the ideal RH. Boom! Another flush! Outdoor growers are at the mercy of the weather.

I would assume that one would only need to look up the ideal environment for Aspergillus and - assuming that neither RH nor temp were disadvantageous for the cigars - back off of those specs a little to allow a slower rate of colonization.

The mold would def. enter through the foot and possibly pore spaces in the wrapper itself. Theoretically, it's already there, although the environmental conditions don't allow it to run roughshod through the entire stick.

This could lend some credence to the folks who age at a higher RH than they smoke at.

[earthson]

I'm guessing you guys don't plan on getting laid any time in the near future?

Fungi propagation takes a lot less time than you think!

[topdiesel]

You might learn additionally by looking into cheese aging techniques if you are serious about this.

[Maplepie]

I'm guessing you guys don't plan on getting laid any time in the near future?

Obviously you've never opened up about a line about mould ageing...

You might learn additionally by looking into cheese aging techniques if you are serious about this.

Consequently, it's my current knowledge that the same white mould on cigars is what exists under your toenails to disintegrate dead skin cells there and secrete a scent much like cheese.

How's THAT for a pickup line...

On a serious note, I will check into that...