Newbie Wineador Guy Needs Tips!

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Hi guys.

I'm from Australia. And I have the most basic of understandings of a wineador.

I'm looking at getting an 8 bottle wine cooler - specifically this one. It's thermo-electric and goes up to 18°C.

For keeping the humidity, I've been told that Heartfelt beads or something similar would be able to keep the humidity at a good 65% RH. I've also read that I will need to plug up the hole, and possibly put some fans in there.

Fans is my first major hurdle. It's extremely hard to source any kind of mains power to molex for computer fans. So I'm thinking of getting a 10CM Fan instead, and just routing the cable through a hole I'll drill in the back of the unit.

For trays and such. I'm thinking of just buying some Spanish Cedar trays online that are made for humidors and sticking those on the Metal shelves already with the unit. Or perhaps just putting some cigar boxes in there. Or even just buying some Spanish Cedar planks and putting those on top the metal shelves.

Basically, I'm heavily confused about this sort of thing.

Any tips are appreciated.

Ambient temperature doesn't go over 30°C in this house. So the cooler should be fine.

Thanks in advance.

[Carpenter69]

You can get custom shelves if you choose. Wineadors.com I believe. 8 bottle is kinda small. I don't know how much you smoke but you may regret going so small. You can also buy stock shelves and customize them to fit your unit. As far as fans go, if you're using an 8 bottle cooler I don't think you really need a fan. Hope this helped a little. I've got 2- new aire 280's and it's still not even close to enough room.

[Carpenter69]

P.S. Welcome to the forum.

[LordAnubis]

Hey mate, where abouts in Aus are you?

I'm in Perth, I personally (and most of the other Perth regulars) have Vintecs and they are truly hassle free for all of us.

Firstly, do you have air conditioning in your house? The only reason I have a fridge is because we don't have AC in our house when you have a few days above 40 the inside house temp gets to 35 or so which isn't good.

My number one recommendation with this project is just see how you go!!

Firstly, your fridge looks pretty small, and you should easily find some boxes that fit well inside it. I have a whole heap of wooden boxes that I store my cigars in. ie slide lid cabinet boxes that are raw wood, Monte Edmundo boxes, Partagas P2 boxes etc etc. I just use them. You might find a box that fits perfectly in yours and just get a heap of 4 or 5 of them (you can get empty boxes from places) and you'll be right. Get rid of those wire shelves, they will just use too much space, just stack boxes in the fridge would be my suggestion.

On to the fan thing, if you have a big fan in this small space, just make sure it doesn't go too fast, and is not always on... and also with circulation, make sure there is room for the air to flow i.e around boxes etc.

Just because everyone plugs the hole doesn't mean you have to. It's truly a trial and error process mate. Get the thing, put some empty boxes in it, put three or four calibrated hygrometers in it, and see how it runs for a few days. If you're happy with it, then start putting your stock in it. After a year or so you'll realise you don't need your hygrometers anymore, you'll have a system that you find works well and you'll know how to tell the moisture of a cigar "by touch".

If your system doesn't do what you want it to do, then start looking at plugging holes, and doing funky things. The only thing you may have to look out for initially is condensation. You'll need to make sure this doesn't drip/soak your cigar boxes...

Get it, plug it in, see how you go.

[Hunter1974]

welcome

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Hey mate, where abouts in Aus are you?

I'm in Perth, I personally (and most of the other Perth regulars) have Vintecs and they are truly hassle free for all of us.

Firstly, do you have air conditioning in your house? The only reason I have a fridge is because we don't have AC in our house when you have a few days above 40 the inside house temp gets to 35 or so which isn't good.

My number one recommendation with this project is just see how you go!!

Firstly, your fridge looks pretty small, and you should easily find some boxes that fit well inside it. I have a whole heap of wooden boxes that I store my cigars in. ie slide lid cabinet boxes that are raw wood, Monte Edmundo boxes, Partagas P2 boxes etc etc. I just use them. You might find a box that fits perfectly in yours and just get a heap of 4 or 5 of them (you can get empty boxes from places) and you'll be right. Get rid of those wire shelves, they will just use too much space, just stack boxes in the fridge would be my suggestion.

On to the fan thing, if you have a big fan in this small space, just make sure it doesn't go too fast, and is not always on... and also with circulation, make sure there is room for the air to flow i.e around boxes etc.

Just because everyone plugs the hole doesn't mean you have to. It's truly a trial and error process mate. Get the thing, put some empty boxes in it, put three or four calibrated hygrometers in it, and see how it runs for a few days. If you're happy with it, then start putting your stock in it. After a year or so you'll realise you don't need your hygrometers anymore, you'll have a system that you find works well and you'll know how to tell the moisture of a cigar "by touch".

If your system doesn't do what you want it to do, then start looking at plugging holes, and doing funky things. The only thing you may have to look out for initially is condensation. You'll need to make sure this doesn't drip/soak your cigar boxes...

Get it, plug it in, see how you go.

Hi,

I'm in NSW, near Picton. We do have an air-con, but obviously with the power prices we try to be economical. So when it hits ~30°C we turn it on.

It's just a Kogan cooler, to start. I was going to buy some of those shelves intended for humidors online. They're pretty much like the ones made from wineadors.com. Except they don't slide it. They'd be sitting on top of the metal/wire shelves.

As for boxes, well sure. There's a few places I can buy empty ones.

As for a fan. Well I can put a computer 120mm in there. I'd need to drill into the back of the unit. I could also just buy a standard plug-in fan. Smallest I found was 10cm. I suppose I could turn it off.

I'm not a huge cigar smoker. So I don't smoke that many. I tend to buy 5 - 10 at a time, and recently got back into it. So I think the unit is fine for someone like me. Depending on whether or not I truly pick it up again, I will obviously then look at buying a bigger unit with custom cedar shelves.

But my main question here is the humidity. 65% is ideal. And around 18 - 20°C is the ideal temperature.

I've been told not to use something like a Cigar Oasis electronic humidifier. And instead stick to Heartfelt beads. And perhap stick a few of those plastic tubes in one of the shelves along with the majority of them down the bottom in those sack looking things you can buy with them.

Also, I'd rather stay away from kitty litter. The beads cost a few bucks more, but for someone like me, I'd rather pay that then worry about KL.

Thanks for the welcomes. I'm not one to post introductions as I'm kind of terrible with that sort of thing.

TIA,

Ryo.

[LordAnubis]

Beads are a good way to go. To be honest, i'd even try Bovedas. Just pick up a pack of 20 of the 60gram bovedas and it should control your humidity very well.

Again you have to try it out and see mate. You might find your fridge sucks out heaps of moisture from the air inside your fridge, and hence bovedas will be a costly exercise, you might find your beads won't do the job, and maybe the cigar oasis will. Start with the cheap beads or boveda option and see how you go.

You may even find you don't actually need to turn on your fridge most days? If that's the case then I suspect bovedas will be perfect for your size and fridge.

[aushy]

I'm in Perth, I personally (and most of the other Perth regulars) have Vintecs and they are truly hassle free for all of us.

What model Vintec? I thought the Vintecs were compressor, not thermoelectric.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Well I've bought some Heartfelt beads. I've also gone ahead and bought some Spanish Cedar trays - the same kind you'd get in a standard glasstop humidor. Also bought a hygrometer and calibrating kit. I'll be buying the fridge in about a week or so.

I'll let yas know how it goes.

[PigFish]

I try not to be too negative in this forum but I hate to see people toss money away!

I am going to therefore shoot from the hip here.

Mate, I suspect that you are tossing money in the trash by buying a cooler this small! There, I said it...

Building a controlled, refrigerated cooler humidor is as much art and intuition as it is science. I know this... I have built a few.

If this is chump change to you, then build it. But if this is really what you are considering as a solid plan to store cigars for the long term I am betting on failure. This box is small, it will be ill controlled and it will leave you with not much room for cigars or errors. Based on my experience, probably the most you will find posting on a cigar forum, by the way, this is not going to work well.

Cigars are not wine bottles. Wine bottles don't care much about several degrees of variation. They have a high thermal mass. When you open the door and water condenses on them, they don't care!!!

I am sorry to be so negative, but that is my attempt to stop you from wasting your money. I figure I owe anyone who asks the honest answer and that is mine...

Best of luck on your projects! -Piggy

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I can get this one.

28 Bottle capacity.

Not much more expensive.

Although mind you, what's your opinion on storing the cigars in boxes/humidors in that 8 bottle one I linked? Wouldn't that help stop condensation on actually hitting the cigars?

Wasting money isn't something I want to do

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Either way, I don't have nearly enough cigars to justify some of the bigger models people have. I buy maybe 15 at a time and slowly smoke them. They last me about 1 - 3 months depending on how nice they are

The 8 bottle would suit me fine, but if condensation will drip onto any cigars, that would ruin my investment.

So there's the model I linked above, or a 16 bottle. Seen here and here. I don't have any other pictures of the 28 bottle. Both are made by Dome and thermoelectric.

[LordAnubis]

What model Vintec? I thought the Vintecs were compressor, not thermoelectric.

Yes they are compressor, and I think that's better.

Ryoken,

Condensation forms on the cooling plate that will be doing the cooling. This is generally on the back wall of the fridge. As long as you keep your boxes off the back wall, and off the floor they shouldn't come into contact with condensation. The other option is, you want this purely for the cooling of the fridge (as the temp sometimes goes up in the house). Buy this small fridge and fill it with sealed Tupperware containers. No matter how much condensation forms in the fridge, the condensation will never touch your cigars as they are in sealed Tupperware containers. A humidor is a balance of both temperature and humidty. You would essentially be using the fridge to control the temperature, and use the internal tupperwares for the humidity control. If the fridge maintains the temperature of the containers, the humidity beads or whatever will control the humidty in the tupperwares. You will need to let that condensation go somewhere though, ie make sure the drainage is nice and clear all the time for the condensation to go out.

PigFish is a master guru at temperature and humidity control of humidors. Trust him, listen to him, he has forgotten more about this topic than all of us think we know. That being said though (with all due respect to him and his science and experience) his level of detail possibly doesn't apply to you. You said you buy 15 (cigars) at a time and smoke through them in a month, so you are not aging for any long period of time. For this purpose I think you will be fine.

There is always a choice, you can go the cheaper option and get it all "roughly" right, you might have a few hiccups here and there. Or you can spend big bucks and go the full hog to get something that will be perfection. You can contact PigFish for advice on creating/procuring a perfectly controlled humidor (he has a business in it). Here is another option you can go with which is very common among members here http://www.aristocrathumidors.com/ . It will cost you though.

With all this being said, and this is where PigFish was going with his advice I believe, if you wanted to get "more" into cigars and store 15-20 boxes to age for 5 or 10 years, then none of the models you have found will do that. If you wanted to go for the long haul, definitely spend the money now and get the better options.

[PigFish]

I walked away from this topic for a few days specifically to give other members the opportunity to provide a variety of opinions to you.

I try to be very careful about propping up my work as a norm or necessity. This leads to bickering over opinions that I don't have time for and it represents possible criticisms that I am not about cast on the projects of others.

What works and does not work is in the eye of the beholder! Everyone should understand this premise. I am a fanatic on the subject of humidor construction and control and way, way off the median. You should understand that too!

My standard does not define success to anyone but me unless you decide for yourself that you will hold your project to my standard. I think that is an important disclosure. And if you are inclined to try your hand at any project, you should not let me get in your way!

If you are going to pursue a project like this, I say take the time to assess risks and options and then emulate the project of another. I am not in the position to tell another that their project does not work, can or cannot work. We are all going to define 'working' differently. You can see it here in this discussion and I wanted that to play out or at the least come out before I entered back into the conversation.

My suggestion is that you ask someone like Magste to give you an idea how he has built his system and you at least start by emulating a project that one claims has worked well for him. That is the best advice I can give.

My projects are built with specific design concepts. I have found that removing one or more of these standards reduces the performance of the system to the point that I am not satisfied with it. You will note that I did not say, it is a failure, just that “I” won’t be satisfied by it. Only if failure begins and ends with my opinion, will I define failure! I hold the bar rather high! I don't see any shortcuts from my designs to achieve the results I want, or I would take those shortcuts myself.

As someone who has built countless numbers of these humidors for others, and myself I speak up out of concern for seeing people waste their resources on projects that (I see) are potential failures. I say this as a friend (lets say mentor), not a critic! I say it as a friend, not as a defining standard. I added an opinion and you should treat my opinion as such, one man’s opinion!

I don't speak up to deny other members their sharing of their projects. Many claim that they have mastered the wine cooler humidor and my only suggestion is start by looking at the work of others and decide for yourself if you believe that their solutions will work for you.

I see the 28 bottle cooler as something more reasonable but still difficult to control under certain circumstances. Again, I am not here to show anyone that something does not work. THAT is not why I post on this forum. My method is to demonstrate what I have done and let the membership decide on their own if my evidence supports their own definition of a working humidor or a dysfunctional one. That is my way and no one else has to follow it.

My systems are complex and pretty sophisticated. They are that way not because it is fun to make them that way, but because it is the only way that I can convince myself that they work. I am likely the forums worst humidor critic! I am a zealot on the topic. Building one the way I do it is "my" path to success, but I don't see it as the only path to success. That also needed to come out of this discussion and I wanted another to say it.

If you are going to build a wine cooler humidor conversion, I suggest you study up on the topic. That is my last word on it. Don’t take it on unless you think you really need it and have some commitment to make it work. What is working? You will have to define working for yourself. If you do decide to make one, start by emulating the work of someone who claims success and will possibly mentor you some or tell you how they did it.

Best of luck on your project! -Piggy

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Unless something comes up, the 28 bottle one seems the best option, given the feedback.

I'll do some reading on the subject. But with Coke Rewards, I can manage to get $100 - $200 off the price of it thanks to them being in partnership of one of the stockers of the 28 bottle cooler. Who wouldn't like only paying the shipping? It'll be practically free!

I've got a list of parts, and will definitely be getting the acessories before the cooler. I've managed to find some 120mm fans than can be plugged into 240v without any adapters, and timers and such. I've ordered 1.5 of Humidity beads, and naturally will test those before choosing anything else in the wine cooler. I think 1.5 lbs may be too little, so might supliment it with some of the boveda packs I've yet to use. Both beads and packs are 65% which I hear is generally the way to go.

Either way, I'm in contact with Piggy, and will be reading more on the subject. 28 bottles will of course allow more room to fit some stuff in it, and from what topics I have looked at they usually say start big.

I'd still like suggestions from other parties if there are any left.

[PigFish]

Unless something comes up, the 28 bottle one seems the best option, given the feedback.

I'll do some reading on the subject. But with Coke Rewards, I can manage to get $100 - $200 off the price of it thanks to them being in partnership of one of the stockers of the 28 bottle cooler. Who wouldn't like only paying the shipping? It'll be practically free!

I've got a list of parts, and will definitely be getting the acessories before the cooler. I've managed to find some 120mm fans than can be plugged into 240v without any adapters, and timers and such. I've ordered 1.5 of Humidity beads, and naturally will test those before choosing anything else in the wine cooler. I think 1.5 lbs may be too little, so might supliment it with some of the boveda packs I've yet to use. Both beads and packs are 65% which I hear is generally the way to go.

Either way, I'm in contact with Piggy, and will be reading more on the subject. 28 bottles will of course allow more room to fit some stuff in it, and from what topics I have looked at they usually say start big.

I'd still like suggestions from other parties if there are any left.

I am backed up on a few inquiries mate. I will get to your questions as soon as I can!

While it is obsolete, you should read my tutorial on building a wine cooler humidor at the top of this forum. That thing is primitive to what I build today but one must crawl before they walk and now I am off and running!!!

Running 240AC into your cooler is a little risky, shock wise! While the cost of a nice power supply might not be in line with your budget and plans, be advised that you can get a nasty shock off the 240AC if you are not careful using it. Since the inside of these coolers are plastic, and these fans are not typically grounded... JUST BE CAREFUL!!! Condensation and a bad connection can lead to a really bad day...

Cheers! -Piggy

[peterk814]

Just curious why the advice not to use a cigar oasis? Just overkill and added cost?

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Just curious why the advice not to use a cigar oasis? Just overkill and added cost?

Apparently they'd get mouldy in no time.

Mind you it was for the 8 bottle.

Still, for 1.5lbs of heartfelt beads from the manufacturers website cost about the same as a Cigar Oasis from a local shop in Australia.

No skin off my back, we all learnt somehow. I'll try the beads, if no luck, maybe an oasis - maybe both.

[PigFish]

Just curious why the advice not to use a cigar oasis? Just overkill and added cost?

The problem here resides in keeping free water in with a solid surface humidor. I do it, use a humidifier in with my projects however I believe I am the only guy using a dehydration cycle in my systems.

Evaporation in a sealed space means high rH, it is that plain and simple. You have two choices with a humidifier in a closed sealed space if you are going to keep water in it. You either need to run a controlled dehydration cycle or you have to depend on regular cooling cycle to do the dehydration work for you. Most guys depend on the random cooling cycle. That is not control in my book, but I can see where you might get the conditions that you want based on the moving averages of rH and temperature and a little luck. Again, this is more a crapshoot verses control but when you think about passive humidors in general, crapshoot is the name of that game (if those reading will forgive me saying so).

In passive systems, you must match input to output. Frankly I see that job more difficult than full automated control. Hell, it used to drive me nuts going in and out of humidors wondering which ones were ahead of or behind the curve. Most people can live with this type of system and it just depends on the individual. A lot of guys like the fuss but after 30 years of cigar smoking, I got a little tired of it.

The bottom line is your own satisfaction, time and budget.

Cheers! -Piggy

[moryc]

I have been running a wineador for about 6 months now. I am using heartfelt beads 65% RH. I tried a few different setups inside and I found that the following works. I have a total of 2 lb of beads in my humidor. These are divided into 4 nylon bags 1/2 lb each. My wineador has a drain hole in the bottom at the back. The purpose of that hole is that the cooling unit occasionally splashes some water on the back wall, and it runs down to drainage hole. I place one top of that hole. The beads in this bag never get refilled and just recycle the water that the wineador produces. The second 1/2 lb bag is placed more less around the middle of the humidor (from the top and from the sides). Once again the beads in this bag never get refilled. I have the two remaining bags of beads on the top on each side of the wineador. These are the ones the I refill. The reason behind this setup is because I found that filling the the bottom bag and the middle bag resulted in very high humidity (as much as 75%) on the bottom of the wineador. I took multiple reading in every box that I could fit a hydrometer into. It almost seems like the humidity was falling to the bottom. Heartfelt beads work both ways, release and absorb humidity so having this setup keeps my humidity steady between 65% and 67%. The boxes on the bottom are usually around 67% and boxes on the top are around 65%.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I have been running a wineador for about 6 months now. I am using heartfelt beads 65% RH. I tried a few different setups inside and I found that the following works. I have a total of 2 lb of beads in my humidor. These are divided into 4 nylon bags 1/2 lb each. My wineador has a drain hole in the bottom at the back. The purpose of that hole is that the cooling unit occasionally splashes some water on the back wall, and it runs down to drainage hole. I place one top of that hole. The beads in this bag never get refilled and just recycle the water that the wineador produces. The second 1/2 lb bag is placed more less around the middle of the humidor (from the top and from the sides). Once again the beads in this bag never get refilled. I have the two remaining bags of beads on the top on each side of the wineador. These are the ones the I refill. The reason behind this setup is because I found that filling the the bottom bag and the middle bag resulted in very high humidity (as much as 75%) on the bottom of the wineador. I took multiple reading in every box that I could fit a hydrometer into. It almost seems like the humidity was falling to the bottom. Heartfelt beads work both ways, release and absorb humidity so having this setup keeps my humidity steady between 65% and 67%. The boxes on the bottom are usually around 67% and boxes on the top are around 65%.

How big is your wine cooler? Bottle-wise?

I only bought 2 bags, and one tube, and 1,5lbs. So I may need to buy another half pound and couple bags, depending. I'll test it before storing/buying more anyway, just to see.

[moryc]

My is a 28 bottle unit, this exact one:

http://www.newair.com/products/AW-281E/

I don't think you can have too much beads in there though. The more beads the faster recovery after you open it.

If you have some extra hydrometers throw them into your boxes and leave them in there for a few days to see what readings you are getting. I found that RH readings outside the boxes were different than what was inside.

I also throw in there any piece of Spanish Cedar that I had. Any dividers from humidors that I am not using or some boxes (non-cubans from what I've seen) sometimes have a piece of cedar in it as a filler, those are in there as well.

If you really want to get creative with your wineador, have a look at this site:

http://wineadors.com

I have read a lot of positive reviews about his work, although from what I have heard he takes a while to get the product out. Never ordered anything from him myself.

[TheMunt]

So from this thread it would appear all Aussies agreeVintec is the way to go. Are there any competitors or are vintec in a class of their own? I know it depends on where you live, weather etc but for aussie summers and winters (QLD) is Vintec what I should default to? looking at getting a decent size one so want to make sure I get the best possible unit for the $$.

A minimal stuff around system is what I'd like, if I need to go away id like to be confident they will stay safe. Does anyone know of other brands with active humidity control?

[muzz]

So from this thread it would appear all Aussies agreeVintec is the way to go. Are there any competitors or are vintec in a class of their own? I know it depends on where you live, weather etc but for aussie summers and winters (QLD) is Vintec what I should default to? looking at getting a decent size one so want to make sure I get the best possible unit for the $$.

A minimal stuff around system is what I'd like, if I need to go away id like to be confident they will stay safe. Does anyone know of other brands with active humidity control?

Delongi unit has active humidity control and constant air circulation. These are a 52 bottle unit so a little larger but are also compressor

[jimsta10]

Cigar Oasis will add moisture within your Wineador, something that you dont want. Breads will release and take back moisture at a much slow rate and provide consistency, something that you want.

As for the right wine cooler, its all relative to price, budget and how many sticks you have. I have opt for a slightly bigger cooler because I believe in growth, but from experience a thermo cooler is the way to go. However, not all thermo coolers have the intelligence to circulate air flow, controls temp at certain levels, manages RH to what we really want. these are all generic marketing mumble jumbo that advertise for you to buy their product.

You and purchase a 24 bottle cooler (second hand) in Australia for around $90 AUD, and in most cases this setup is more than enough for a beginner. I would also recommend buying a temp control device from ebay with cpu fan and drill a hole at the back to run your cables. this will add another $30-$40 for piece of mind knowing that your temp somewhat stabilized. then invest in 1 pound of HF beads (worth its weight in gold)...all up the project could cost your around $200 AUD.