Mold or plume help

[PigFish]

Piggy,

Informative post as always. You are my reference for humidification discussions. I did want to respond to a few points though.

"Precipitation" is technically accurate in this usage, but wouldn't condensation be a more contextually apt term?

The other point is that this is a dynamic process, respiration, transpiration, condensation, diffusion, etc. And as such, the boundary conditions are so critical in the outcome. For example, if a warm tube is slowly cooled as the sun moves away and the local environment cools down then the dynamics are different than if the tube or tin were moved directly to a cold surface, i.e., laid on a cool interior granite countertop. The locus for condensation might not manifest in the first but be right on the surface/tube/cigar interfaces in the latter.

What do you think, sir?

Wilkey

Of course I am speculating on all of this. This is simply a logical extrapolation of events (as I see them) where one (member in this case) may be assuming that his cigars exist in a "stable state" ERH environment and then ask, "Where did liquid water come from?"

While I am no mold expert, my knowledge is that mold requires capillary water action. I have undertaken some studies of water activity (Aw) in my work with desiccants and through that study, which is largely based on the preservation of foods; water, liquid water is considered the major 'precipitating' factor to mold growth. Without the liquid water, the mold ceases to grow or does not initiate a grow cycle. Mold spores could in fact be present on all our cigars at all times, resting in a dormant state, awaiting the liquid water as a catalyst.

Perhaps precipitate is not technically correct in this context if one is regarding precipitation as "falling rain" verses a caused event. I tend to use the terms as if they were synonyms. Of course one of the terms may be a broader term with the other a subset… I would have to ponder that one! In the broad sense do more objects precipitate or condense? I don't know the answer to that one? I would have to guess that precipitate would be the broadly defined set if we were linking terms and relating them as set and sub-set.

The actual events inside the closed case are a mystery to me. Is it possible then that the water vapor could cool first and precipitate from space? I would have to say unlikely, but certainly possible! Without a means to generate or absorb heat (spontaneously) from within, I would have to assume that the heat transfer was externally caused. Of course, water leaving the cigar is an endothermic event, cooling the cigar as water picks up the energy necessary to free itself from the tobacco bond. I would guess that this effect is negligable. I would put my money on one surface, likely the tin, cooling first and while cooling acting as in insulator to the interior space preventing formal precipitation (as in rain) and causing (precipitating the act of coalescing the water) formally, condensing on a cooled surface. If this were the event, the metal case itself would and could likely be the cause of the problem. Either way, it is academic, not that I have anything against the academic discussion.

Of course the process could be backwards. The case and water could be heated rapidly, leaving the cigar at a differential temperature at or below the dew point causing liquid water to condensate on the cigar itself as an insulated material. In this case however, I would think (not know) that this event would be transient in nature, only affecting the wrapper and the absolute water content of the space. Without increasing the water into the space from the filler, I can see the water returning to space and not remaining in an out of equilibrium rH state in the wrapper. I cannot see defying the laws of physics long enough to grow mold… Again, I am speculating…

In any event the tin, IMHO is an active player and likely the culprit when teamed with temperature change. While we may not be able to affect any significant measure against temperature changes, removal of the cigars from the tin, appears to me, to be the best and most logical choice.

It is what I would do first, in a 1000 words or less… -LOL

Thanks for adding to the conversation Wilkey. Always a pleasure to engage you! -Ray

[PigFish]

Thanks, Ray. It isn't showing on taptalk, so I'll get on my laptop and check there. I appreciate it brother

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cigarclimatology (use @ symbol here) gmail.com

[...]

Ray,

Typically, something precipate out of solution in a liquid an water vapour condenses out of air (as per technical terminology)

[PapaDisco]

"liquid water is considered the major 'precipitating' factor to mold growth. Without the liquid water, the mold ceases to grow or does not initiate a grow cycle."

Very interesting point. Since we can actually control temperature very precisely (given unlimited funds! ) it would be an interesting 5 year experiment to age a set of cigars at low to very high rH's and see what the result ends up tasting like. Buy 50 Churchills and split them into rH groups of 50, 60, 70, 80, 90. 10 sticks in a group. At 90% rH I wonder just how precise your temperature control would need to be to avoid even microscopic liquid water? Anyway, it would be a fun experiment; unfortunately the big short coming would be an inability to get consistent (rolled by the same roller from the same tobacco allocation) cigars to start with.

[Maplepie]

unfortunately the big short coming would be an inability to get consistent (rolled by the same roller from the same tobacco allocation) cigars to start with. [/font][/color]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Increase sample size! 50 cab in each set humidity!

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Wow, that would be a fantastic experiment.

[MrGTO]

I volunteer to smoke the test samples!

[Maplepie]

I volunteer to smoke the test samples!

first you gotta volunteer to buy the test samples

or ask for a FoH sponsorship. actually that doesn't seem like a bad idea...........

[Diamondog]

Custom rolls could be obtained rolled by the same roller...

[PigFish]

"liquid water is considered the major 'precipitating' factor to mold growth. Without the liquid water, the mold ceases to grow or does not initiate a grow cycle."

Very interesting point. Since we can actually control temperature very precisely (given unlimited funds! ) it would be an interesting 5 year experiment to age a set of cigars at low to very high rH's and see what the result ends up tasting like. Buy 50 Churchills and split them into rH groups of 50, 60, 70, 80, 90. 10 sticks in a group. At 90% rH I wonder just how precise your temperature control would need to be to avoid even microscopic liquid water? Anyway, it would be a fun experiment; unfortunately the big short coming would be an inability to get consistent (rolled by the same roller from the same tobacco allocation) cigars to start with.

Maybe a misunderstanding here. Liquid water will potentially form on its own while bonding in large amounts in tobacco and other hygroscopic materials. Water is polar and seeks to bond to itself via a hydrogen bond. If you think that you need to 'see' the water for it to be present, you would be wrong. The mold apparently needs capillary water. You therefore could find mold on cigars not expose to liquid water (as you see it), but stored at an ERH high enough to form the chain necessary to feed and sprout mold.

What mold sees as 'liquid water' and what you see as liquid water are different. Just how many bonded molecules defines liquid water, we can ask our chemist friend Jeremy. Just how many chained molecules are necessary for mold to see liquid water is above my pay grade…

Storing at say 70/80 is likely going to get you moldy cigars… But say storing at 80/80 may not as water with that amount of energy may not wish to bond to tobacco in great enough amounts under those conditions. Each condition would be contingent on the hygroscopic material and its bond strength with water. You would have to tie up the water in the tobacco first as a gas, and saturate it (so to speak). It would all start there.

Note: a lot of this is speculation on my part.

I can only say that if someone gave me free cigars, contingent upon my storing them at 70/80, I would not take the cigars nor waste my time! I would, if I were frankly dishonest, store them at 60/70 and just smoke them… ! -LOL

Cheers! -Piggy