Fidels 88th Birthday .......

[Ryan]

Interesting thread. I would have to agree with most of what Cubano said with one or two possible exceptions. I don't mean to be picky really, nor in any way disrepectful towards your family's history. But you say

"Cuba had the best standard of living of any country in Latin America and the Caribbean before Castro."

Objectively, uprisings/rebellions/revolutions generally don't suceed in regimes where the majority of the population are happy with the existing system.

It's an enormous step for anyone to support a rebellion leading themselves and their families into a complete unknown regarding personal security, employment, food security, healthcare, education etc. Something must have driven them.

I know Castro reneged on all his promises regarding constitutional reform, ending corruption and introducing fair government but still, something must have made them want to take that leap from the existing regime.

Regarding Castro, he has certainlty been charismatic, it's interesting that such an important figure in 20th century politics is still around but that's about it.

I've seen some of the correspondence between Castro and Kruschev from the missile crisis where Castro implored Kruschev to start things off and "make a sacrifice" of Cuba (i.e. goad Kennedy into nuking Cuba) in order to promote socialism worldwide. Even Kruschev, luckily, thought he was nuts.

If you're going to make an example with a sacrifice, sacrifice yourself, not your children.

While yes, welfare, healthcare and education are better than most poor countries, a system where the vast majority of the population has to break the law in order to get enough to eat is a failed system. Not to mention all the other deprivations Cubans have to endure.

As Pres and others have said, it's not as simple as blaming the embargo, though it doesn't help.

It's failed government, which uses the embargo as an excuse. There's a saying in Cuba, "Castro's greatest ally has always been the embargo".

[CUBANO]

Interesting thread. I would have to agree with most of what Cubano said with one or two possible exceptions. I don't mean to be picky really, nor in any way disrepectful towards your family's history. But you say

"Cuba had the best standard of living of any country in Latin America and the Caribbean before Castro."

Objectively, uprisings/rebellions/revolutions generally don't suceed in regimes where the majority of the population are happy with the existing system.

It's an enormous step for anyone to support a rebellion leading themselves and their families into a complete unknown regarding personal security, employment, food security, healthcare, education etc. Something must have driven them.

I know Castro reneged on all his promises regarding constitutional reform, ending corruption and introducing fair government but still, something must have made them want to take that leap from the existing regime.

Regarding Castro, he has certainlty been charismatic, it's interesting that such an important figure in 20th century politics is still around but that's about it.

I've seen some of the correspondence between Castro and Kruschev from the missile crisis where Castro implored Kruschev to start things off and "make a sacrifice" of Cuba (i.e. goad Kennedy into nuking Cuba) in order to promote socialism worldwide. Even Kruschev, luckily, thought he was nuts.

If you're going to make an example with a sacrifice, sacrifice yourself, not your children.

While yes, welfare, healthcare and education are better than most poor countries, a system where the vast majority of the population has to break the law in order to get enough to eat is a failed system. Not to mention all the other deprivations Cubans have to endure.

As Pres and others have said, it's not as simple as blaming the embargo, though it doesn't help.

It's failed government, which uses the embargo as an excuse. There's a saying in Cuba, "Castro's greatest ally has always been the embargo".

I agree with you. People in Cuba where not happy with the political system. Corrupt elections, rapping the Treasury, and a coup is why people rebelled, not because of economy conditions. The same thing is what happened in Venezuela with Chavez.

I'm glad you mentioned what happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis, as not too many people know about this.

[Ryan]

i'd take cuban citizenship over dominican, trinidadian or mexican any day of the week. having been to all these places, the cubans have it pretty good compared to the other mentioned places.

Fair enough but the discussion would never end when we start comparing how badly countries have failed their citizens.

What I know is the fact that thousands of Cubans willing to leap into the ocean over the last 50 years, often with not much more than an inner-tube, to get away is not a good sign of the general state of affairs.

[Ryan]

For Cubano, and anyone else interested, there was a very good documentary made about the missile crisis called 'Here Was Cuba', made, incidentally, by an Irish team, not that that matters. I saw it on TV here, not sure how easy it would be to find in your area, though PBS were involved too.

The trailer implies a lot more 'flash-bang' than the actual film, which is mostly interviews with people very closely linked the events themselves. It's very good.

Not sure if this link to the trailer will work, posting from a phone.

Or just try this

[Maplepie]

Not sure if this link to the trailer will work, posting from a phone.

that's been said a while now....

there's a trading room, Andy. use it and get yourself a computer! I know i'd be interested in whatever you post up.....

[Maplepie]

hey PC! i've yet to see your distinctive username around here for a bit.

welcome back into the swing of things

[Ryan]

believe it or not ryan, dominicans and haitians leap into the same ocean and try to make thier way to puerto rico. could you imagine looking for a better life in puerto rico?

the grass is always greener................................over the septic tank

I've no reason not to believe you but saying that Cubans have it better than people in some other countries doesn't mean that Cubans have it good.

[Ken Gargett]

I've seen some of the correspondence between Castro and Kruschev from the missile crisis where Castro implored Kruschev to start things off and "make a sacrifice" of Cuba (i.e. goad Kennedy into nuking Cuba) in order to promote socialism worldwide. Even Kruschev, luckily, thought he was nuts.

really interested in this. do you have a source?

there was an excellent book on the crisis by three authors - at least one american and one russian academic, if i recall correctly (i'll try and remember to dig it out and get the name).

they were certainly not of that view and supplied evidence/correspondence that it was in fact fidel who convinced russia not to push the button, as they had been strongly urged to do by che.

for me, che was the real nutcase. i find it much more believable that it was che wanting that, than fidel. fidel has proved he is the ultimate survivor. just don't see him calling in friendly fire to wipe out the island when he has just spent a decade or two fighting to free it.

[Ryan]

really interested in this. do you have a source?

there was an excellent book on the crisis by three authors - at least one american and one russian academic, if i recall correctly (i'll try and remember to dig it out and get the name).

they were certainly not of that view and supplied evidence/correspondence that it was in fact fidel who convinced russia not to push the button, as they had been strongly urged to do by che.

for me, che was the real nutcase. i find it much more believable that it was che wanting that, than fidel. fidel has proved he is the ultimate survivor. just don't see him calling in friendly fire to wipe out the island when he has just spent a decade or two fighting to free it.

It's discussed in the documentary 'Here was Cuba' I mentioned in the post earlier. Kruschev's son is interviewed and discusses the phone calls and correspondence between his father and Fidel during the crisis. Of course Che Guevara might have convinced Fidel what line to take at the time. Nevertheless, Fidel was president (or whatever he called himself at the time), not Ché.

[PigFish]

Ryan, from what recall, it took approximately 30 of the population of the American colonies to start and win a revoluion against the Crown. From what I understand about 30% were indifferent and 30% were loyal to the king.

I don't think that one can assume that a majority is required to start or win a revolution. This is just a general point and it has nothing to do with Cuba.

Cheers, Ray

[Ryan]

Ryan, from what recall, it took approximately 30 of the population of the American colonies to start and win a revoluion against the Crown. From what I understand about 30% were indifferent and 30% were loyal to the king.

I don't think that one can assume that a majority is required to start or win a revolution. This is just a general point and it has nothing to do with Cuba.

Cheers, Ray

It's still 50:50 for and against

It meant thousands of ordinary farmers, labourers etc. were willing to stand up against the British army in order to get away from the status quo. I don't think they would have done so if they had been happy and comfortable with the way things were.

I don't think it's an outlandish leap of logic to state that revolutions need popular support in order to succeed. Generally.

[Ryan]

really interested in this. do you have a source?

Ken, regarding the source.

There are three letters from October 1962 that kind of sum it up. Now I know there can be issues with translations from Spanish-Russian-English etc but still, it’s fairly clear.

This letter from Castro asking Kruschchev for a first strike against the US in the event of a ground force invasion of Cuba, knowing that that would mean the obliteration of Cuba. While the language is not 100% explicit. It’s fairly clear what Castro is asking for when he says this to Krushchev.

“Following that event (invasion of Cuba by the US) the Soviet Union must never allow the circumstances in which the imperialists could launch the first nuclear strike against it.”

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621026%20Castro%20Letter%20to%20Khrushchev.pdf

Then this letter from Krushchev to Castro basically telling him to calm down.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/19621028khrlet.pdf

And then this last letter from Castro to Krushchev on Oct 31^st where Castro makes it fairly clear with these lines.

“Do you believe, Comrade Khrushchev, that we were selfishly thinking of ourselves, of our generous people willing to sacrifice themselves, and not at all in an unconscious manner but fully assured of the risk they ran?

No, Comrade Khrushchev. Few times in history, and it could even be said that never before, because no people had ever faced such a tremendous danger, was a people so willing to fight and die with such a universal sense of duty.

We knew, and do not presume that we ignored it, that we would have been annihilated, as you insinuate in your letter, in the event of nuclear war.”

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621031%20Letter%20to%20Khrushchev.pdf

With the last letter, written after the event, there certainly might be an element of politicking. Castro explaining how loyal he and Cuba are to the socialist cause that he would have been willing to sacrifice everything. Easy to say when the chips are off the table. Still, they’re his words.

How many of us would be happy if we found out that our leader had written to a foreign nuclear power telling him that he would have been happy to have the country obliterated for “the cause”.

There are some other letters in there between the two, some regarding specifics such as the shooting down of a US spy plane etc.

Good site. http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/

[Guyman1966]

Ryan, from what recall, it took approximately 30 of the population of the American colonies to start and win a revoluion against the Crown. From what I understand about 30% were indifferent and 30% were loyal to the king.

I don't think that one can assume that a majority is required to start or win a revolution. This is just a general point and it has nothing to do with Cuba.

Cheers, Ray

30 Revolt

30 Indifferent

30 Loyal

= 90%

Where is the other 10%? Can someone please pass the data logger?

[Ryan]

I was just reading some more of those letters.

This one is brilliant, the letter starting 4 pages down from the British ambassador in Havana to his boss.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/621110%20The%20Cuban%20Crisis%20-%20Chapters.pdf

“An early interest in the possibility of evacuation (of British embassy staff) has subsided as it became evident that if it was a nuclear war we were heading for, Cuba was perhaps a better place to be than Britain”.

I can't read it without Noel Coward's voice in my head.

[PigFish]

30 Revolt

30 Indifferent

30 Loyal

= 90%

Where is the other 10%? Can someone please pass the data logger?

… 10% were commies… They just were not formally invented yet!

[Ryan]

Ken, don't know if you saw my response to your request for a source. Anyway here's another.

That documentary, 'Here was Cuba' has been called 'Kennedy's Nuclear Nightmare' when shown on some TV channels.

I had forgotten I have most of it recorded on my TV box. That box doesnt allow copying from it so I made a video of the pertinent part. The sound isn't great and the click you sometimes hear is my cigar lighter but it should be clear enough.

It's copyrighted but I might get away under fair usage rules.

Some analysts and experts discussing those letters. I think they were declassified only recently ie < 15 years.

[chrisgeo]

Dude is the Energizer Bunny.