Plume / Bloom

[Colt45]

If we believe that plume / bloom is the migration to, and crystallization of, a cigar's essential oils on it's surface, is it a desirable, or less than a desirable trait?

As an aside, can we effectively reduce a cigar's water content while maintaining it's oil content?

[Guest rob]

I think the allure and attraction to plume (for many), is that it typically is evidence of age.

As to whether the appearance of plume creates any difference in taste, or creates a better smoking experience.... I have no idea! I have the palate of a billy goat.

[Maplepie]

As an aside, can we effectively reduce a cigar's water content while maintaining it's oil content?

yes. rapid heating. it happens when we light the cigar.

But i do suppose you mean long term storage. That is also a yes. Freeze dry the cigar. This is in no way recommended or endorsed by me just an answer to your question.

In response to the plume should be a mixture of the cracking of the bigger molecules due to degredation and time. this is why new cigars have that little sheen and sparkles to it: cracking. As it builds up, the solvent content and original properties of the tobacco leaves change leaving an undesirable condition for CERTAIN oils to remain let alone stay as the large oils. In response to this, plume forms.

This does not mean that the cigar has any less oils. Just different oils. These smaller oils then reduce tar concentration and potential.

Addendum: Perhaps i should try a freeze dry cigar one day

Supporting information: cracking is breaking a molecule into smaller molecules. Take for example: gasoline (Octane 8-chain oil). If you crack Octane, you can technically get butane (4 chain oil), propane (3 chain oil), and methane (1 chain oil) and collect it. [4+3+1 = 8 or octane]

[Grahamsant]

Supporting information: cracking is breaking a molecule into smaller molecules. Take for example: gasoline (Octane 8-chain oil). If you crack Octane, you can technically get butane (4 chain oil), propane (3 chain oil), and methane (1 chain oil) and collect it. [4+3+1 = 8 or octane]

Ooooh....Hydrocarbons....I just love it when you talk dirty!

[Colt45]

I have the palate of a billy goat.

Robbo!

What'd the goats ever do to you?.......

This does not mean that the cigar has any less oils. Just different oils.

Does this mean you feel that it is only wrapper oils which crystallize?

[Maplepie]

Does this mean you feel that it is only wrapper oils which crystallize?

nein, mein herr

'tis a pourous membrane. transfers of substances is easy across cigars compared to drywall or metals. substances like to stay in one medium [salt molecule can float easily in the water it's submerged in but cannot just leave the water and go onto the table] the oils like to stay in the cigar and would crystalise on the outside of the cigar as it's the final frontier of cigar before it heads to another medium.

[Fuzz]

What a load of hogwash. It is scientifically proven that bloom/plume is caused by magical pixies making sweet love on your cigars...

[Maplepie]

What a load of hogwash.

HOGwash!?!

if ray was here, he'd neuter you!

[Colt45]

nein, mein herr

.... the oils like to stay in the cigar and would crystalise on the outside of the cigar as it's the final frontier of cigar before it heads to another medium.

So, if plume is actually the result of oils leaving the cigar, would we think this a desirable, or less than desirable attribute?

It is scientifically proven that bloom/plume is caused by magical pixies making sweet love on your cigars...

Aren't all pixies, by nature, magical? And if plume is in fact a byproduct of said pixies intercoursing upon our cigars, what would your recommendation be for a cigar smoker's oral hygiene regimen?

[...]

What a load of hogwash. It is scientifically proven that bloom/plume is caused by magical pixies making sweet love on your cigars...

Hmmmm, no need for pixies... Ask Mr. Clinton about the secret to instant plume

[Maplepie]

So, if plume is actually the result of oils leaving the cigar, would we think this a desirable, or less than desirable attribute?

Again. According to my first post, they're oils changing and leaving the cigars.

Heavy oils break down and form small oils. Which in turn help burn because only heavy oils generate tar and what not.

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Ginseng]

Again. According to my first post, they're oils changing and leaving the cigars.

Heavy oils break down and form small oils. Which in turn help burn because only heavy oils generate tar and what not.

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

Please present any evidence or documentation you have on any of these mechanisms. Any of them.

This topic has been debated ad infinitum and while we can address Colt's question regarding desirability and interpretation of the phenomenon, how what happens comes to happen remains purely in the realm of speculation and I don't read anything in your posts that suggest otherwise.

Let's not perpetuate misconceptions and folklore. If you've got a source or can propose a reasonable analogous mechanism (i.e., breakdown of nicotine during fermentation into alkaloids, nornicotine, cotinine, etc., Link 1, Link 2) then let's see it. But if you're going to attempt to use scientific-ish terms, then apply them properly and precisely.

If you're up to the challenge, GoogleBooks has quite a few good books and articles on the processing and conversion of tobacco in cigars and cigarettes.

Wilkey

[Maplepie]

Please present any evidence or documentation you have on any of these mechanisms. Any of them.

If you're up to the challenge, GoogleBooks has quite a few good books and articles on the processing and conversion of tobacco in cigars and cigarettes.

My apologies Wilky. I'm normally up to the task of citing peer review articles like I have with the hygroscopic polymers that I discuss ad nauseum (for the scientific laymen) on this forum with Piggy.

As you can see, I had take the view of a chemist and not of a botanist or biochemist on all my subjects. This one is not an exception. Perhaps it's led to the other fields instead of mine. But I do have the interest to ask them on such and have directed me to papers in the past. though, frequently on humidity conditions.

You suggested that this topic has been around a near infinite amount of times and continue to be brought up. Compare that to the easily solved topic of dessicants, beads and polymers.

There's a reason for that. There's a lack research on this topic where everything is conjecture inductive and deductive.

We simply can't produce the research on it due to demand on information. Everything I've said was on the basis of what I know biochemically on other leaves and assume it happens on the tobacco leaves.

I admit it my first post did seem a tad lacking. Probably worthy of a plagerism strike . Sorry for that. Will amend when I get a chance.

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[PigFish]

HOGwash!?!

if ray was here, he'd neuter you!

… me, I like the pixie theory! It has kept charlatans and politicians in cigars, minks and limos, gold clad robes and white horses for hundred if not thousand of years!

Cannot ague with what works!!! -LOL

-Piggy

[PigFish]

Please present any evidence or documentation you have on any of these mechanisms. Any of them.

This topic has been debated ad infinitum and while we can address Colt's question regarding desirability and interpretation of the phenomenon, how what happens comes to happen remains purely in the realm of speculation and I don't read anything in your posts that suggest otherwise.

Let's not perpetuate misconceptions and folklore. If you've got a source or can propose a reasonable analogous mechanism (i.e., breakdown of nicotine during fermentation into alkaloids, nornicotine, cotinine, etc., Link 1, Link 2) then let's see it. But if you're going to attempt to use scientific-ish terms, then apply them properly and precisely.

If you're up to the challenge, GoogleBooks has quite a few good books and articles on the processing and conversion of tobacco in cigars and cigarettes.

Wilkey

…uh oh, you have riled the whiles of Wilkey! Mind you he is a fierce force for facts, forbidding fallacies! Don't bring me into this…

Ahh… Wilkey my friend, those heady days of cigar pseudo science and subjective speculations! Don't you miss them? You, me and Jonathan, I miss those days!

Not to mention that Ross has a new avatar and that is reason alone to celebrate today!

I would love to chime in on this one but I am gonna' pass for now. Personally I cannot see a link to oils and plume… but I have not studied it. I would love just to know what the stuff is so that I can opine.

Does anyone have any research on what it really is; a crystalline growth, precipitation of a reaction, biologic??? Hell, I don't know! I build a helluva humidor but still don't know why I have to wake up at 4AM every morning to pee! I mean, why 4am?

I know if someone would lend me $35 bucks I could subscribe to that online library for a day and could download the linked article!!! -LOL

Cheers all! -the Pig

[PigFish]

What happened to your avatar Jeremy? Did Ross's scare it away?

I like to consider Ross a friend of mine. Maybe if I put in a good word for you he will draw you a new one!!! -LOL

-R

[Maplepie]

Ahh… Wilkey my friend, those heady days of cigar pseudo science and subjective speculations!

. Personally I cannot see a link to oils and plume… but I have not studied it. I would love just to know what the stuff is so that I can opine.

Subjective speculations?

What about the alcoholic oils on all other plants? Main one being poison ivy... orrrrr the infamous tricombs on hemp? Alcoholic oils.

C'mon Ray! That's what you meant by that, right?

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Maplepie]

What happened to your avatar Jeremy? Did Ross's scare it away?

I like to consider Ross a friend of mine. Maybe if I put in a good word for you he will draw you a new one!!! -LOL

I never had one,

Get colt to draw me one. I love his new one . But toss the word in anyway!

Sent by the Enigma on BlackBerry.

[Colt45]

Personally I cannot see a link to oils and plume…

Part of the question

self portrait - on a good day!

[PigFish]

The speculative nature of the beast is so riddled with variables that it appears to me that my own contentment is derived from what I know of science verses what I don't know about the specifics of the flavor agents of tobacco.

Are tobacco oils a good thing? Who says so and why? What proof is there? If so, what do they taste like? Are they volatile? Are they agents of bitterness or bad flavor or good flavor? If volitive is the loss calculable? Can a deterioration of flavor, an estimation of the 'aging' effect be calculated, then charted and predicted?

Perhaps they (oils for instance) are in fact volatile. How about the other side of the coin? Perhaps their loss represents the refined flavor that is cherished in what is considered the 'aged' cigar!

What does the oil on the wrapper say about the remaining tobacco inside? With the total weight of the wrapper as compared to the total of the cigar being a very small percentage (yes I have weighed a few) are visual signs of oil more than just a placebo?

I am just as curious as the next guy, believe me. I would love to know and then be the 'big hat' in the room with all the answers! I don't unfortunately. It appears to me that pixie dust is just about as good an answer as oils from my house!!!

While I respect the hell out of curiosity, believe me, I have my share I understand solutions as a need to cure problems. Solutions should not cause problems. What is more, if a solution is presented, it makes sense to pursue the real reason for success… This brings to mind the cigar in the freezer thread.

Did the freezer solve the problem, or was it simply a means to an unforeseen consequence that did in fact solve the problem? Did you get a better draw from a drop in temperature in the combination of wrapper, binder and filler or did you just take the long way around to wetting the wrapper and binder allowing the filler more room?

Were problems really solved, or were they just imagined to be? I think these are all good questons.

For me there is no reason to attempt to affect the condition of cigar oils. More often than not, it appears that the condition of taste of the 'aged' cigar is preferred by many to that of the green cigar. Not by all certainly, but to the highbrow collector crowd, assuredly! Not to say that their tastes are any better than the rest of ours!

The ultimate point being that there is no need to fix a problem that does not exist. A problem should be known to exist before a solution is applied or you may in fact be creating a greater problem.

If you want evidence of this, just look at government. They represent solutions to problems that they cannot fix, ones that generally work out to be more grievous to the problems that they attempted to cure! Understanding the results, at least looking at the wide range of positive and negative potential results, should be reason to act or not to act. Without that understanding you are simply gambling…

Cheers! -R

[Maplepie]

Alright! I've reviewed one peer-review article that contains all the information essential to this bloom/plume argument.

I unfortunately can't post it here because it's linked to a University Database but i'll email it to you, Ray. It's VERY helpful in determination of compounds and it's performed in 1968 back when cigarettes were purer tobacco.

Review is:

Steadman, R. L. The Chemical Composition of Tobacco and Tobacco Smoke. (1968): 153-207.

Unfortunately i don't have the time to review and condense it all for you. But i will say i was slightly incorrect in my first assumption. I'm at work and have other things to do besides FOH... So when i get a spare moment, i'll read it on the train or bus and THEN condense it and reformulate my findings

[Colt45]

[Maplepie]

pizzy.jpg

BRILLIANT!!!

Aside: i commented on your profile. Go approve it.

[Maplepie]

Ray, my first post after yours should solve that plethora of questions for you. Not only does it answer the tobacco content question but also ones with tobacco smoke. The taste would be undeterminable no matter what. The human body is so complex and we're not getting into taste/smells. I don't want to know which complex ligands will give which flavours because those macromolecules will be uncalculatable.

Also: If the oils were volatile, why wouldn't they just leave after 6 months of ageing? They have to be quite heavy and long chained like the ones discussed in the journal.

For me there is no reason to attempt to affect the condition of cigar oils. More often than not, it appears that the condition of taste of the 'aged' cigar is preferred by many to that of the green cigar. Not by all certainly, but to the highbrow collector crowd, assuredly! Not to say that their tastes are any better than the rest of ours!

This is what i've said a while back. But we can always try. We can't figure out how photosynthesis works, but does that mean we shouldn't try to genetically enhance plants (through mutations, artificial selection, or even mRNA alteration) so they can produce more sugars and energy.

Also, if solutions shouldn't lead to problems, why (in science) do answers always lead to more questions? Why do my thesis proctors keep bombarding me with questions every time i answer something!?

[PigFish]

Ray, my first post after yours should solve that plethora of questions for you. Not only does it answer the tobacco content question but also ones with tobacco smoke. The taste would be undeterminable no matter what. The human body is so complex and we're not getting into taste/smells. I don't want to know which complex ligands will give which flavours because those macromolecules will be uncalculatable.

Also: If the oils were volatile, why wouldn't they just leave after 6 months of ageing? They have to be quite heavy and long chained like the ones discussed in the journal.

This is what i've said a while back. But we can always try. We can't figure out how photosynthesis works, but does that mean we shouldn't try to genetically enhance plants (through mutations, artificial selection, or even mRNA alteration) so they can produce more sugars and energy.

Also, if solutions shouldn't lead to problems, why (in science) do answers always lead to more questions? Why do my thesis proctors keep bombarding me with questions every time i answer something!?

I praise curiosity mate, you might have gotten me wrong. I am not talking about being curious or stimulating speculative conversation, all of which I enjoy. I am talking about taking specific unwarranted action for poorly defined or concieved reasons… I am relating back (in my mind) to collector and aging theories that have no basis in fact but are better defined (IMHO) as beliefs.

-Ray