The Wine Magician

[Jeremy Festa]

I thought wine cultivation and production was well esoteric before I watched this!?!?!

This is quite special...

[Jeremy Festa]

Your thoughts Ken?

[Ken Gargett]

this is really worth watching. thanks.

coulee de serrant was one of the worlds great wineries many many years ago. i think it was named one of the top five with yquem etc. it fell into disrepair and was "saved" by joly. tho some think this might be a case of 'we have to destroy the village to save it'.

i've had some of the older wines and they can be very good but i think he has gone so far in extremis that they are now almost parodies. i am not a fan.

that said, he deserves huge kudos as he is the high preist of biodynamics and many winemakers swear by it. but it is a bit chicken and the egg. it seems that it is mostly the truly great producers who use biodynamics. some say that they would make great wines without the biodynamics. others say because of it. i'm half way. those producers would make terrific wine anyway, but for them to use it, there must be something to it. though many do not go as far as joly.

when you look at the producers here and overseas then you have to be convinced. though i think joly himself is a grape away from a rubber room.

remember that many producers don't go so far as to certify.

here are some of the offshore producers - ignore the distributors. but wow! DRC, zind humbrecht, weinbach, leflaive, mugnier, palacios, huet, chapoutier, selosse, pingus, felton road, leroy, lafon and so on and on. the great names.

and plenty here as well. cullens, henschke ...

FRANCE

Alsace

Albert Mann Imported by World Wine Estates

Josmeyer Imported by Domaine Wine Shippers

Domaine Marcel Deiss Imported by Terroir Selections

Domaine Ostertag Imported by Cellarhand

René Muré Imported by Euan Mckay

SchlumbergerImported by Mezzanine

Domaine Weinbach Imported by Euan Mckay

Domaine Zind-Humbrecht Imported by red+white

Beaujolais

Paul et Eric Janin, Moulin A Vent Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Bordeaux

Chateau de Pontet Canet, Pauillac Imported by Negociants

Burgundy

Domaine Amiot-Servelle, Chambolle Musigny Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Domaine Chandon de Briailles, Savigny les Beaune Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Domaines des Comtes Lafon, Meursault Imported by Negociants

Domaine Michel Lafarge, Volnay Imported by World Wine Estates

Domaine Leflaive, Puligny Montrachet Imported by Negociants

Domaine Leroy, Vosne Romanée Imported by Cellarhand

Domaine de Montille, Volnay Imported by Domaine Wine Shippers

Domaine Pierre Morey, Meursault Imported by Euan Mckay

Domaine J.F Mugnier, Chambolle Musigny Imported by Domaine Wine Shippers

Maison Nicolas Potel, Nuits Saint Georges Imported by The Prince Wine Store

Domaine de la Romanee Conti, Vosne Romanée Imported by Negociants

Domaine Trapet, Gevrey Chambertin Imported by Ross Duke Wine Company

Domaine de Villaine, Bouzeron Imported by Domaine Wine Shippers

Domaine de la Vougeraie, Nuits St Georges Imported by Domaine Wine Shippers

Chablis

Vincent et René Dauvissat Imported by Euan Mckay

Champagne

Champagne De Sousa Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Domaine Jacques Selosse Imported by The Prince Wine Store

Larmandier-Bernier Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Champagne Raymond Boulard Imported by Ross Duke Wine Company

Champagne Leclerc-Briant Imported by Ross Duke Wine Company

Champagne Laherte Frere et Fils Imported by Ross Duke Wine Company

Champagne Bruno Michel Imported by Ross Duke Wine Company

Loire Valley

Alphonse Mellot, Sancerre Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Clos de la Coulee de Serrant, Savennieres Imported up until this year by Euan Mckay

Didier Dagueneau, Pouilly Fumé Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Domaine de l’Ecu, Muscadet Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

François Chidaine, Montlouis Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Domaine de la Garreliere, Chinon Imported by World Wine Estates

Domaine Huet, Vouvray Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Rhone Valley

M Chapoutier, Hermitage Imported by The Wine Company

Domaine de Marcoux, Chateauneuf du Pape Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Mas de Libian, Cotes du Rhone Imported by Douglas Lamb

Montirius, Cotes du Rhone Imported by Vintage and Vine

Domaine de la Mordorée, Tavel Imported by Euan Mckay

Domaine Réméjeanne, Cotes du Rhone Imported by The Prince Wine Store

Maison Tardieu Laurent, various appellations Imported by Bibendum/International Fine Wines

Domaine de Villeneuve, Chateauneuf du Pape Imported by Vintage and Vine

Southern France

Domaine de Borie de Maurel, Minervois Imported by Vintage Cellars

Grande Maison, Bergerac Imported by Vintage and Vine

Chateau Maris, Minervois Imported by World Wine Estates

Domaine Matassa, Roussillon Imported by Cellarhand back to the top

GERMANY

Burklin-Wolf, Pfalz Imported by Vintage and Vine

Weingut Wittmann, Rheinhessen Imported by Cellarhand

ITALY

Cantine del Notaio, Basilicata Imported by Arquilla

C.O.S., Sicily Imported by Enoteca Sydney

Poggerino, Radda in Chianti Imported by Trembath and Taylor

Sesti, Montalcino Imported by Douglas Lamb

Tenuta di Valgiano, Lucca Imported by Arquilla

Zenato, Veneto Imported by Arquilla

NEW ZEALAND

Felton Road, Central Otago Imported by red+white

The Millton Vineyard, Gisborne Imported by Haviland Wine Merchants

Pyramid Valley, North Canterbury Imported by Whole Bunch Wines

Richmond Plains, Imported by RAW Wine and Beer. email:[email protected]

Rippon, Central Otago Imported by QED Wines

Seresin, Marlborough Imported by Nelson Wine Company

Vynfields, Martinborough, Imported by Bacchus

SPAIN

Alvaro Palacios, Priorat Imported by The Spanish Acquisition

Descendientes de J Palacios, Bierzo Imported by The Spanish Acquisition

Piedra Luenga, Montilla Moriles Imported by RAW Wine and Beer

Pingus, Ribera del Duero Imported by The Spanish Acquisition

Telmo Rodriguez Matallana, Ribero del Duero Imported by The Spanish Acquisition

USA

Beaux Frères, Oregon Imported by Pinot Now

[Jeremy Festa]

this is really worth watching. thanks.

coulee de serrant was one of the worlds great wineries many many years ago. i think it was named one of the top five with yquem etc. it fell into disrepair and was "saved" by joly. tho some think this might be a case of 'we have to destroy the village to save it'.

i've had some of the older wines and they can be very good but i think he has gone so far in extremis that they are now almost parodies. i am not a fan.

that said, he deserves huge kudos as he is the high preist of biodynamics and many winemakers swear by it. but it is a bit chicken and the egg. it seems that it is mostly the truly great producers who use biodynamics. some say that they would make great wines without the biodynamics. others say because of it. i'm half way. those producers would make terrific wine anyway, but for them to use it, there must be something to it. though many do not go as far as joly.

when you look at the producers here and overseas then you have to be convinced. though i think joly himself is a grape away from a rubber room.

remember that many producers don't go so far as to certify.

here are some of the offshore producers - ignore the distributors. but wow! DRC, zind humbrecht, weinbach, leflaive, mugnier, palacios, huet, chapoutier, selosse, pingus, felton road, leroy, lafon and so on and on. the great names.

and plenty here as well. cullens, henschke ...

Amazing! Frothing on that info, especially regarding importers! Cheers Ken!

[Ken Gargett]

i sent the video around to a number of friends in the industry. all sorts of responses from cuckoo to interesting. some had spent time with him. one winemaker from a brilliant winery - the name would be known to anyone interested in wine, came back with this.

There is no doubt here that this is an interesting thought provoking video, as is any presentation by Joly. There is one issue I have that really rankles ( apart from the issue of are the wines really good ) and that is the concept that he showed in his little graphic about there only being two methods of viticulture….Industrial full of Chemical Shit……and Biodynamic. It truly mis-represents what the modern world of high quality viticulture and growing grapes for fine wine is about. Fine wine is about, and pinching a term of Matt Kramers here, creating a wine that makes you dream. Joly has a similar line about heart. You can only make wines like this when the special character of a place and its people is allowed to shine. It can only shine when the “belief” system of winegrowing and “vintning” amongst the people is culturally strong. Biodynamics is a belief system embraced by those who believe. It is not the only one.

There is a belief system of making “wines that make you dream” that looks like this.

“ Wine is a human creation, it does not occur in nature. Grow grapes symbiotically within your place, leave no footprint of your intervention except footprints, and a place that is alive. Harvest grapes that are intact and ripe, dusky with bloom. Make the wine without input of additives ( except minimal S02 ) but with an enormous input of care. Let the wine take its natural course unless it says it needs your intelligent, sympathetic help. Remember, it is often the small imperfections that make a wine truly compelling. Dream.”

That is the belief system that I personally aspire to, and actually one that I believe many makers of the worlds greatest, terroir expressive wines, also believe in. The status of those wines speaks of the belief system. The problem is it doesn’t have a cool name and fascinating creator, or an evangelical community of producers ( because we are too busy doing it than to preach about it ), or a counter culture that embraces the concept. There are a great many biodynamic producers who make sensational, spellbinding wines and I take my hat off to them. There are also many that don’t. Maybe it’s time we also took our hats off to those who can make spellbinding wines without being biodynamic?

[paulF]

Very interesting indeed.Would be more interesting to get a wine maker to follow the exact same practices of Biodynamics without following the moon phases or anything related to the cosmos and study the results of that process.

It wouldn't surprise me if the result would be close to organic produce, something on the lines of Organic= Biodynamics - spirituality or energy stuff.

I believe that's the case because from my understanding biodynamics relies heavily on the position of the moon in relation to the constellations/planets. while I can accept the moon affecting the process due to its gravity, accepting that constellations/planets do the same is a bit far fetched due to their far distance from us and hence their gravity fields not reaching us.

At the same time, we don't know much about the cosmos so anything is possible and maybe all those big wineries know something that we don't hence why many are adopting Biodynamics :-)

[Ken Gargett]

the problem of taking the moon etc out of BD would mean that for practitioners of BD, it is no longer BD. absolutely integral to the process. but there are some links between organics and BD.

[Jeremy Festa]

Come on guys. Let's be honest. Biodynamics is a total farce. I am all for organic and minimal footprint if possible, but biodynamics is like believing in the Easter bunny after you're 25 years old!

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[Ken Gargett]

Come on guys. Let's be honest. Biodynamics is a total farce. I am all for organic and minimal footprint if possible, but biodynamics is like believing in the Easter bunny after you're 25 years old!

a lot of the world's greatest winemakers would completely disagree.

there is certainly something to it though how much 'more' than organics, i'm not certain.

[Colt45]

Interesting, in a Deepak Chopra kind of way

I don't know how I really feel about it, except that if a producer is willing to take that much care, I guess at the very least it can't hurt. One question I might have is how have the energies, etc, of the various planets as mentioned, been determined, and by who?

It does seem that BD producers seem a little "quirky", but perhaps that's more a matter of the more outspoken practitioners being the ones we hear about, and as Ken mentioned, there are probably many more who practice to certain degrees but go about doing so quietly.

[winelover]

With biodynamics maybe it works without us quite understanding how, I am strangely curious about how intensley BD practices are appled per unit of vinuard. E.g. how many cow horns per hectare required to be certified biodynamic, and what if cow horns weren't available and other horns were used et etc.

Interesting vid if a little one sided.

Cheers

G

[paulF]

a lot of the world's greatest winemakers would completely disagree.

there is certainly something to it though how much 'more' than organics, i'm not certain.

+1 . Big wineries are in the end big companies and usually such companies would not make massive decisions such as changing their agricultural methods without some sort of incentive or studies that proved it to be more profitable(wether its through making better quality wine or simply the catchy name of biodynamcis or ... ).

There must be something into it as Ken mentioned since a lot of the great wine makers are going for it!

[paulF]

One question I might have is how have the energies, etc, of the various planets as mentioned, been determined, and by who?

Had the same question myself but seems that there is really no science behind it to prove that it actually works better than other agricultural techniques.At least for now. As for energies and stuff, i don't buy that stuff since as per my first post, the only force(that we know of ) that can affect the earth from other planets/cosmos is gravity which is way too weak from other planets or stars to affect us.

In more details, the gravitational pull of the Moon on Earth is only 0.55% of the gravitational force between the Sun and the Earth and hence it affecting tides for example. As for the other large planets, when they are the closest to Earth, Jupiter only exerts around 0.0062% of this force and Mars only around 0.00023%. So as you can see we don't have much numbers wise unless they rely on some force other than gravity!

Here's a nice link about biodynamics: http://www.redwhitea...biodynamics.htm

[Ken Gargett]

Had the same question myself but seems that there is really no science behind it to prove that it actually works better than other agricultural techniques.At least for now. As for energies and stuff, i don't buy that stuff since as per my first post, the only force(that we know of ) that can affect the earth from other planets/cosmos is gravity which is way too weak from other planets or stars to affect us.

In more details, the gravitational pull of the Moon on Earth is only 0.55% of the gravitational force between the Sun and the Earth and hence it affecting tides for example. As for the other large planets, when they are the closest to Earth, Jupiter only exerts around 0.0062% of this force and Mars only around 0.00023%. So as you can see we don't have much numbers wise unless they rely on some force other than gravity!

Here's a nice link about biodynamics: http://www.redwhitea...biodynamics.htm

i don't pretend to understand it all or even close but i know a lot of the BD guys do talk of the movement caused by gravity of sap in plants etc.

also, when you actually grab a handful of soil from BD vineyards, you immediately notice the difference. so much fresher, more lively, if that make any sense. and that has to be a good thing.

[Jeremy Festa]

Had the same question myself but seems that there is really no science behind it to prove that it actually works better than other agricultural techniques.At least for now. As for energies and stuff, i don't buy that stuff since as per my first post, the only force(that we know of ) that can affect the earth from other planets/cosmos is gravity which is way too weak from other planets or stars to affect us.

In more details, the gravitational pull of the Moon on Earth is only 0.55% of the gravitational force between the Sun and the Earth and hence it affecting tides for example. As for the other large planets, when they are the closest to Earth, Jupiter only exerts around 0.0062% of this force and Mars only around 0.00023%. So as you can see we don't have much numbers wise unless they rely on some force other than gravity!

Here's a nice link about biodynamics: http://www.redwhitea...biodynamics.htm

Even the effect of the moon's gravity is almost completely negligible on a vineyard. One definite effect is lighting up the night sky and influencing the nightlife activity of the evening pollinators.

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[Colt45]

When compared to a producer like Frank Cornelissen, Joly might be considered an interventionist

[fba]

In a worlld made of money and ingeneering, some of the greatest winemaker (which in my opinion are not the most bankable, but those wh refuse to "parkerise" and contiue making high quality wine while preserving the AOCs) biodinamy is like poetry. Yo may think that it is a bit too much, and sometimes they act like crazy, but at least crazy people in the wine make today diversity possible. I would not love wine that much if it was only for drinking Pomerol like wine, as Rolland & Parket.

I would also add, Chateau Mangot (St Emilion) with Todeschini 2008 and in another registry Foillard Cote du Py. The last one is perhaps crazy, but the last time we took down a couple of bottles, the only common thought we had was : "Wowww...How can he do this only with Gamay..."

Winemaking need more illuminated people to evolve than business men. During the last years the great name have only focus in selling wine to rich people, and they forget about intrinsec quality. I don't know any wine drinker (serious) that would honestly tell you that he was dazzled by petru or angelus or auzone. However I know lot who get dazzled by biodynamic wine or organic wines.

That is all about wine today : mass marketing turns everything into woody parkerised rolandified pommerol for mass marketing because it is the easiest too drink, but their will hopefully always be local player that want to preserve the singularity of each wine, who don't care about notations.

[Jeremy Festa]

a lot of the world's greatest winemakers would completely disagree.

there is certainly something to it though how much 'more' than organics, i'm not certain.

Ken, these greatest winemakers would be completely well within their rights to disagree, but they would still be seen, by me, as 'not all there.' I am certain that biodynamics has something to it, but absolutely nothing more than organics. The organic component of biodynamics is what it is. It is like comparing astronomy and astrology.

Still though, I bought a biodynamic and an organic champagne on the weekend.

In a worlld made of money and ingeneering, some of the greatest winemaker (which in my opinion are not the most bankable, but those wh refuse to "parkerise" and contiue making high quality wine while preserving the AOCs) biodinamy is like poetry. Yo may think that it is a bit too much, and sometimes they act like crazy, but at least crazy people in the wine make today diversity possible. I would not love wine that much if it was only for drinking Pomerol like wine, as Rolland & Parket.

I would also add, Chateau Mangot (St Emilion) with Todeschini 2008 and in another registry Foillard Cote du Py. The last one is perhaps crazy, but the last time we took down a couple of bottles, the only common thought we had was : "Wowww...How can he do this only with Gamay..."

Winemaking need more illuminated people to evolve than business men. During the last years the great name have only focus in selling wine to rich people, and they forget about intrinsec quality. I don't know any wine drinker (serious) that would honestly tell you that he was dazzled by petru or angelus or auzone. However I know lot who get dazzled by biodynamic wine or organic wines.

That is all about wine today : mass marketing turns everything into woody parkerised rolandified pommerol for mass marketing because it is the easiest too drink, but their will hopefully always be local player that want to preserve the singularity of each wine, who don't care about notations.

I am afraid though, that biodynamics has itself become a marketing 'point of difference.'

[Ken Gargett]

Ken, these greatest winemakers would be completely well within their rights to disagree, but they would still be seen, by me, as 'not all there.' I am certain that biodynamics has something to it, but absolutely nothing more than organics. The organic component of biodynamics is what it is. It is like comparing astronomy and astrology.

Still though, I bought a biodynamic and an organic champagne on the weekend.

I am afraid though, that biodynamics has itself become a marketing 'point of difference.'

be interested in which champers and what you think.

the 'not all there' thing is a fair comment when you see videos like the joly one but if you spent any time with people like blair walter from felton road, mike from pyramid (very keen cigar smoker), aubert de villaine from DRC (very keen fly fisherman and one of the most respected, generous gentlemen imaginable), olivier humbrecht, freddie mugnier and many many others, you could not help but think the exact opposite. some of the most thoughtful, reasoned intelligent and exceptionally competent people in the wine world.

as for the marketing side of things, understand what you say but the costs involved and the effort and time, tend to make it much more than that, by necessity.

[Jeremy Festa]

be interested in which champers and what you think.

the 'not all there' thing is a fair comment when you see videos like the joly one but if you spent any time with people like blair walter from felton road, mike from pyramid (very keen cigar smoker), aubert de villaine from DRC (very keen fly fisherman and one of the most respected, generous gentlemen imaginable), olivier humbrecht, freddie mugnier and many many others, you could not help but think the exact opposite. some of the most thoughtful, reasoned intelligent and exceptionally competent people in the wine world.

as for the marketing side of things, understand what you say but the costs involved and the effort and time, tend to make it much more than that, by necessity.

Will have to dig them out when I get home. Haven't had either yet.

Both were obscure producers as far as my wife and I were concerned. Hadn't heard of either. Both 2002, and really low production numbers, like 1 of 3500 and 1 of 7000 bottles. Picked them up at the Wine Emporium, as a good mate works there, and looks after us. Just by chance they had an importer/distributor on his selling rounds, doing a tasting for their staff and a little salesy presentation from his latest offerings. From Noosa, and the funny thing is we both knew we had met each other before, as I use to live in Noosa. So then my mate dragged me into the line up, and then my wife. Was really impressive. Picked a favourite each and we went on our way.

[Jeremy Festa]

as for the marketing side of things, understand what you say but the costs involved and the effort and time, tend to make it much more than that, by necessity.

I know, I know. But having only read a little about it, I sorta feel, it's a little like pissing into the wind?!?!

Don't get me wrong. I love the passion, and belief system and all that jazz, but logic is my belief system!

[Ken Gargett]

Will have to dig them out when I get home. Haven't had either yet.

Both were obscure producers as far as my wife and I were concerned. Hadn't heard of either. Both 2002, and really low production numbers, like 1 of 3500 and 1 of 7000 bottles. Picked them up at the Wine Emporium, as a good mate works there, and looks after us. Just by chance they had an importer/distributor on his selling rounds, doing a tasting for their staff and a little salesy presentation from his latest offerings. From Noosa, and the funny thing is we both knew we had met each other before, as I use to live in Noosa. So then my mate dragged me into the line up, and then my wife. Was really impressive. Picked a favourite each and we went on our way.

you mean nesh?

pascal, fleury? he has some very good ones.

the one to chase is the douquet 1995. absolute stunner.

[Jeremy Festa]

you mean nesh?

pascal, fleury? he has some very good ones.

the one to chase is the douquet 1995. absolute stunner.

Had my wife dig them out and send a picture!

Your thoughts?

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[Ken Gargett]

Had my wife dig them out and send a picture!

Your thoughts?

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not seen those two but should be interesting 2002 a stunning vintage. the ruffin looks lie 2008. makes it very young - i don't think i've seen an 08 as yet but all reports suggest it is one of the greatest years, close to 1996.

[Jeremy Festa]

not seen those two but should be interesting 2002 a stunning vintage. the ruffin looks lie 2008. makes it very young - i don't think i've seen an 08 as yet but all reports suggest it is one of the greatest years, close to 1996.

Indeed. My two faves were actually 2002, forgot the missus picked the 2008. Good to know about the '08. I am familiar with 2002. Was telling Rob, my wife is compiling a champagne collection to rival my selfish cigar collection. All very childish. Borne from spite. And she is blinded by the fact that I also benefit from this endeavor of hers. I am 100% onboard!

It was Nesh we got them from!

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