A change to the Washington Redskins name and Logo?

[DrunkenMonkey]

Drunkenmonkey - Picking up the redskins cause 100 years late is like saying we need to still apologize for slavery with special grants and societies for people who were wronged. We don't need to pay for the sins of our grandforefathers 100 times over. That particular issue was dealt with years before you and I were born. If you keep bringing it up over and over and over again, you are only reopening the wounds. Not letting them heal.

I don't understand why you think these two things are anything alike. It's not about righting any past wrongs, or having anyone give anyone anything. It's just asking that the racist name stop being used. It's the use of the word "redskins" that is not allowing this to be put to rest. And asking that the team stop embarrassing themselves, and the NFL, and the rest of us who love football, by holding on to a racist term that used to be acceptable to use, and hopefully will not be any longer.

I'd feel the same way if a TV network were to start programming minstrel shows. You know, minstrel shows for more than 100 years were the most widely enjoyed form of entertainment in the US. If people were insisting on producing them now, I'd be of the opinion that they were inappropriate and offensive.

[SCgarman]

I said it twice, now I'll say it thrice. The name is not gonna change, lol.

[SCgarman]

I'll bet you a 5-pack of Sir Winstons that 5 years from today, they will have changed the name.

I'll bet you the Cuban embargo will end before the Redskins name ever changes. And hell has a better chance of freezing over first. Haha.

[bassman]

If the name is changed to the Washington Skins I suppose the players will not wear shirts.

My wife is half "American Indian". The only reservation in her life is about marrying me.

[Marker]

The term 'redskin', when used to refer to Native Americans, dates from the time of the Native American genocide, when bounties were offered to people who would hunt them, kill them, and bring in their scalps, which were exchanged for the bounty.

We don't hunt Indians anymore. The term negative connotation of the term redskins has been outdated for a century. Yet you still want to pick up the banner and carry their cause while many of your other current rights and liberties are taken away. Go ahead and waste your time crying over 100 year old wrongs. All the while you can pay higher taxes to the government because they use their time fixing an NFL football team mascot name instead of everything else.

The name will probably be changed one day. It will cost millions and millions of dollars in legal fees, merchandise changes, etc. So good job in supporting the lawyers, big design firms, big sports companies and politicians in getting paid to do nothing more than remove a team name that doesn't hurt anyone directly that is alive today.

I wish you the best in your next crusade. To lobby the dairy farmers to call it mother of pearl milk. Because it isn't really white. It is some version of off white. And calling it white is offensive to some of the black cows that made it.

[DrunkenMonkey]

I'll bet you the Cuban embargo will end before the Redskins name ever changes. And hell has a better chance of freezing over first. Haha.

I won't take the embargo bet, because that just may happen first. I've no idea. But the Redskins name is going to change. I'll take the redskins name change vs. hell freezing over bet. How do we confirm that hell hasn't frozen?

[DrunkenMonkey]

Marker, why is it that me expressing my opinion is a 'crusade', and other peoples' opinions are just their opinion? For the record, I think the crusades were a bad idea too.

Also, no one is crying over 100 year wrongs. Some people are complaining about the use of a racist term for an NFL team name. That's the name today, not 100 years ago.

[ptrthgr8]

Ptrthgr8-Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't two ND Sioux tribes split in their support of the ND fighting Sioux name?

Sort of. One tribe fully supported the name of the school and the other other tribe largely supported it, but that tribe's council refused to hold the vote because a few of the council members didn't like the name. I.e. they failed at their job of representing their tribe. The NCAA told UND that they had to get the approval of both tribes in order to continue use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. That turned out to be impossible (again, because the one coucil refused to let their tribe vote because the council knew their tribe would approve the name), so the Fighting Sioux name and logo were tossed out. It was rumored that the NCAA and those other misguided crusaders were working very closely with the tribe's council to make sure the vote never happened.

The whole affair was jacked and sketchy.

~ Greg ~

[perfectform]

Sort of. One tribe fully supported the name of the school and the other other tribe largely supported it, but that tribe's council refused to hold the vote because a few of the council members didn't like the name. I.e. they failed at their job of representing their tribe. The NCAA told UND that they had to get the approval of both tribes in order to continue use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. That turned out to be impossible (again, because the one coucil refused to let their tribe vote because the council knew their tribe would approve the name), so the Fighting Sioux name and logo were tossed out. It was rumored that the NCAA and those other misguided crusaders were working very closely with the tribe's council to make sure the vote never happened.

The whole affair was jacked and sketchy.

~ Greg ~

Wow, thanks for the edumacation. It's a shame, as "fighting sioux" certainly doesn't come across as offensive. Too bad they couldn't/wouldn't sanction it.

[Marker]

Yes, it's a sad day for all when it has become unacceptable to celebrate genocide.

Ken, point me to the polls of Native Americans who favor keeping the name. Where exactly did you gather this from?

You made it more than an opinion when you crossed the line into saying people who like the name also accept genocide. Typical emotional fear mongering.

If you have an opinion that is awesome. Express your opinion in such a way that doesn't attack anyone who doesn't believe your same opinion.

Which makes it hypocritically funny you are now throwing it back at me because I don't agree with your opinion. This is a tactic that the fear mongers use. Act aggressive and wronged. Cry loud and hard so everyone can hear you. When someone comes back with an opinion or argument that you don't like, act wronged and hurt. Then come back as the victim against the person that is a sympathizer to the mean and hateful wrongs that occurred. Now that person who doesn't agree with you gets linked to the wrong side of a tragedy. The sheep will rally against the evil person that voiced a different opinion no matter how logical or correct it might be.

You have taken a line of right and wrong that should take on a logical debate, and turned it into primal good and evil. Which is what you do when your only want is to win the argument and not entertain others point of view.

[DrunkenMonkey]

You made it more than an opinion when you crossed the line into saying people who like the name also accept genocide. Typical emotional fear mongering.

I didn't say that people who like the name are accepting of genocide. I said that the name itself celebrates genocide. It made no judgement about the people who don't want the name changed. Try for accuracy, and keep in mind that I'm not attacking you; I'm questioning the things you say. I'd ask you to maintain the same distinction.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Which makes it hypocritically funny you are now throwing it back at me because I don't agree with your opinion. This is a tactic that the fear mongers use. Act aggressive and wronged. Cry loud and hard so everyone can hear you. When someone comes back with an opinion or argument that you don't like, act wronged and hurt. Then come back as the victim against the person that is a sympathizer to the mean and hateful wrongs that occurred. Now that person who doesn't agree with you gets linked to the wrong side of a tragedy. The sheep will rally against the evil person that voiced a different opinion no matter how logical or correct it might be.

Can you explain how any of this rant is even relevant? Was this meant for another thread? When have I claimed to be a victim, or acted wronged? I haven't even felt wronged, let alone claimed to be, and I'm not sure what it is that you're imagining. I think you should take a deep breath and relax.

[Marker]

Read your genocide statement again.

You are saying if you dislike the redskins name you consider it unacceptable to celebrate genocide.

That is a black and white statement. That is not I stand on this part of a debate. That is I stand on this side of a line. Anyone who thinks the name is acceptable is on the other side of this line.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Read your genocide statement again.

You are saying if you dislike the redskins name you consider it unacceptable to celebrate genocide.

No. I am saying that the name "redskins" itself celebrates genocide. Anything that you want to infer from the statement is not, by definition, "what I'm saying".

And I'm frankly just pissed off at your saying that I've attacked anyone. Where did you imagine that happening?

[Marker]

I think you should take a deep breath and relax.

Great. We have been reduced down to the 'u mad bro' comeback.

Assuming someone is worked up because they are typing. You somehow think that if we were discussing this face to face or over a cigar I would be huffing and puffing, raising my voice, stomping around the room. Don't assume that. It shows what you envision the discussion to be like and not rational reality.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Great. We have been reduced down to the 'u mad bro' comeback.

Assuming someone is worked up because they are typing. You somehow think that if we were discussing this face to face or over a cigar I would be huffing and puffing, raising my voice, stomping around the room. Don't assume that. It shows what you envision the discussion to be like and not rational reality.

You reduced my statement to that. You also didn't address any of the substance of the comment.

[Marker]

No. I am saying that the name "redskins" itself celebrates genocide. Anything that you want to infer from the statement is not, by definition, "what I'm saying".

And I'm frankly just pissed off at your saying that I've attacked anyone. Where did you imagine that happening?

Then you go on to say you are worked up about it. I didn't reduce your statement to anything. You assume I am worked up and pissed off like you. I am not.

Regarding the substance of your comment.

I said 'This is a tactic fear mongers use'

If you are not a fear monger you can disregard that. Thank you.

[ptrthgr8]

Wow, thanks for the edumacation. It's a shame, as "fighting sioux" certainly doesn't come across as offensive. Too bad they couldn't/wouldn't sanction it.

Agreed. And the most infuriating part of this whole thing is the fact that it wasn't the local tribes who went screaming to the NCAA demanding a change be made. It was simply a matter of some uptight do-gooders at the NCAA deciding there were 18 schools using Native American-themed names/logos/mascots that were deemed to be "hostile and abusive." Most of the schools immediately changed, but some other schools (Florida St. comes to mind first) got the approval from the tribes in question and the NCAA allowed them to continue using the names.

Hostile and abusive. I hate the NCAA. They're worse than the mob.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[khomeinist]

Perhaps we can all agree that the NCAA is a joke......

[perfectform]

Agreed. And the most infuriating part of this whole thing is the fact that it wasn't the local tribes who went screaming to the NCAA demanding a change be made. It was simply a matter of some uptight do-gooders at the NCAA deciding there were 18 schools using Native American-themed names/logos/mascots that were deemed to be "hostile and abusive." Most of the schools immediately changed, but some other schools (Florida St. comes to mind first) got the approval from the tribes in question and the NCAA allowed them to continue using the names.

Hostile and abusive. I hate the NCAA. They're worse than the mob.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

We can agree on that. They are one of the worst organizations in this country.

Yes the seminoles were sanctioned, as well as the Utes and the Illini, although they were forced to remove their Chief logo.

I just think the Redskins name should change to remove the legacy of a racist, A-hole jerkoff.

[ptrthgr8]

Perhaps we can all agree that the NCAA is a joke......

Indeed I think we can. Or, actually, I think we do.

[khomeinist]

Ok. so my Chief Illiniwek summary....

The 'Chief' was an amped-up (white) fraternity kid who would stomp around during halftime routines for basketball and football. A lot of ominous band music would accompany this dance. The 75% of the audience who were into the chief would stand in awe and recite some words like that were at church. The other 25% would roll their eyes and turn around in protest.

It was more stupid than anything. I misappropriation of culture to fire up an audience for a trivial sporting contest.

All that being said, I do think the NCAA is a complete joke.

[DrunkenMonkey]

Totally agr

Indeed I think we can. Or, actually, I think we do.

I agree with this completely, regarding the NCAA being a joke, and completely useless and almost always wrong.

Was it just a NCAA decision (re: "Fighting Sioux")? Wasn't there a state ballot initiative over this?

[ptrthgr8]

Was it just a NCAA decision (re: "Fighting Sioux")? Wasn't there a state ballot initiative over this?

The basic chain of events:

1. NCAA pitches a fit
   
2. UND tells them to get bent
   
3. NCAA tells UND they'll bury them and eat their children (I'm obviously paraphrashing)
   
4. UND starts working with the local tribes to secure their approval/sanctioning to continue using the Fighting Sioux name
   
5. Tribal politics lead to the name not being approved (see my previous post about that)
   
6. North Dakota legislature works to make a change to the State constitution requiring UND to keep using the name (in an effort to give the finger to the NCAA)
   
7. UND sees the writing on the wall, begs the legislature to not pass something like that since the NCAA (being the douchebags they are) won't care about a silly State law anyhow
   
8. ND legislature compromises, says they'll put the issue in front of the people in a ballot initiative
   
9. The people of ND end up voting to retire the nickname, not because they agreed with the NCAA, but because they agreed the NCAA are a bunch of baby-eating douchebags who would see to it that UND never played in another sanctioned sporting event until the end of time.
   

And that's basically it. There's a reason UND fans are so vocal and obnoxious now at all sporting events at home and on the road - hockey, football, basketball, badminton, etc. They wear all the "retired" sweaters and jerseys they can find and try to be as obvious and loud as they can be - we won't ever let the NCAA forget that UND will always be the Fighting Sioux.

Cheers,

~ Greg ~

[DrunkenMonkey]

Wow, that's terrible.