winelover Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Do you guys really want to exit the Euro and welcome back the Drachma? I guess your recent election results indicate the rejection of austerity and the terms of the loan deal so either it is a game of double bluff gone wrong (mistaken belief of the limitless generosity of the German taxpayer) or most actually want out? Isn't this the choice unless there is a "have your cake and eat it" trick which I have missed? I just don't get it. On the otherhand if membership is not sustainable perhaps default and exit and devaluation could help Greece regain competitiveness and spur growth. That is if the country doesn't implode from all of the ensuing chaos. I sincerely hope not There's no schadenfreude here, just sadness. Worrying times for all. P.S. Mods feel free to do what you like with this, no offence intended, just serious concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohiba Stevie Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Lol surely you realise that the greeks leaving the eurozone is practically a done deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winelover Posted May 14, 2012 Author Share Posted May 14, 2012 Lol surely you realise that the greeks leaving the eurozone is practically a done deal? I read the news. My thread isn't supposed to be questioning the inevitability of what is happening, it is more to enquire of the logic and thought processes have been going on in the minds of the Greek voter - ie do they really want to go back to the drachma and halve their savings, devalue their pensions and render their Euro denominated debts even more unpayable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I can understand the angst against Austerity measures. A % of nongs destroy the economy. You cut peoples incomes and benefits but increase cost of living and expect them not to retaliate at the ballot box. Democracy may see the disintegration of the EU over the next 10 years as each of the major countries affected goes to the polls. I wonder how Spanish elections if held today would pan out. I suspect the rise of far left and far right parties feeding off discontent. Surely, a 10 -20 year plan of social and economic change is needed for these countries. You simply cannot make the average person carry all the weight of austerity measures? Children need to be clothed, fed, educated. Rents/mortgages need to be paid. Productivity needs to increase. Expenditure/revenue balanced. However you can't do this in short term hatchet economics without risking the rise of ugly political dynamics. People need to come first and you need to take them with you on the journey to rebuilding these countries (shared responsibility). Otherwise elections will simply become a pressure valve and a race to the bottom of the economic and social barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winelover Posted May 15, 2012 Author Share Posted May 15, 2012 I agree that anti-cuts and austerity is the people's wish and who can blame them when it is strangling the life out of the economy and causing hardship. At the same time I wonder whether those who voted along these lines fully realise that by doing so they are rejecting their continued membership of the Euro. I liked the suggestion last year of the previous Greek premier of an "in or out" referendum which was shelved under heavy international pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Sell the country to the highest bidder or turn it into a corporate state. Have a couple of companies come together to buy it and use the population as a cheap labour class. I'm sure Apple needs a new manufacturing centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazolaman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Personally, I think Greece, Spain, Portugal et al will leave, or at least there will be two tier Europe, with Germany, France(even though their economy is down the pan!) and the Netherlands at the top table. Another sign of global economies suffering due to a lack of control in the good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainQuintero Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 They never stopped useing the Drachma! When I've been the local still use the old currency between themselves. It's a shame, the Greek people are some of the nicest you will ever meet and seeing the country which brought us democracy as so many systems which we all take for granted nowadays is just sad. I think they will drop out and default and build their way back up slowly. If Spain goes then the Euro I'd think will be done, their economy is just too big to bail out and even now Germany doesn't want to give away any more money. The sooner it all happens the better, watching a car teeter on the edge of a cliff for four years gets boring after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikosdoc Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 They never stopped useing the Drachma! When I've been the local still use the old currency between themselves. It's a shame, the Greek people are some of the nicest you will ever meet and seeing the country which brought us democracy as so many systems which we all take for granted nowadays is just sad. I think they will drop out and default and build their way back up slowly. If Spain goes then the Euro I'd think will be done, their economy is just too big to bail out and even now Germany doesn't want to give away any more money. The sooner it all happens the better, watching a car teeter on the edge of a cliff for four years gets boring after a while. Dear Captain, i can assure you that since 2001,there are no drachmas in the local market.With a ratio 345,75/1 there is not a reason to. So latest news,here in Greece we are going on elections again,sometime in the midjune. what we are paying is the coruption of the majority of our politics.Most of them dont care of what they represent or the wellbeing of their country,as long as they can get under the table deals to profit them selves. I can assure you that any sane person here,would not want Greece to leave the eurozone. Most will agree with the reason of Pres,but the athorementioned politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallclub Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 what we are paying is the coruption of the majority of our politics. That and the aberrations of the Greek tax system. The professions and self-contractors can easily cheat on their taxes and AFAIK they don't hesitate to do so. As a greek entrepreneur told to a french newspaper : In Greece, paying taxes, it's being a jerk… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikosdoc Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 That and the aberrations of the Greek tax system. The professions and self-contractors can easily cheat on their taxes and AFAIK they don't hesitate to do so. As a greek entrepreneur told to a french newspaper : In Greece, paying taxes, it's being a jerk… That is so true!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanuckSARTech Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Corruptions in politics, but it seems also about the "common man" taking advantage of that system, and now everyone is trying to point the finger at each other now that the piper has come to be paid.... I have married family that're from Portugal as well as Greece, and one particular fellow that I used to work with that was from Athens directly (sponsored and immigrated to Canada three years ago now).... He explained to us about one of the funny things about the property taxation system in Greece lately. About how your property tax rate is calculated, among other things, but specifically about if you have a pool on your property or not, and how it doubles your taxes or something like that. And, with the last few tax census', only about 10-12% of those (can't remember if he was specifically talking Athenians, or Greeks as a whole) were actually claiming that on their taxes. Yet....with recent Google satellite photography post-Athens Olympics, something like 70-80% of residences had them. Funny how all that tax money would come in handy now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazolaman Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Corruptions in politics, but it seems also about the "common man" taking advantage of that system, and now everyone is trying to point the finger at each other now that the piper has come to be paid.... I have married family that're from Portugal as well as Greece, and one particular fellow that I used to work with that was from Athens directly (sponsored and immigrated to Canada three years ago now).... He explained to us about one of the funny things about the property taxation system in Greece lately. About how your property tax rate is calculated, among other things, but specifically about if you have a pool on your property or not, and how it doubles your taxes or something like that. And, with the last few tax census', only about 10-12% of those (can't remember if he was specifically talking Athenians, or Greeks as a whole) were actually claiming that on their taxes. Yet....with recent Google satellite photography post-Athens Olympics, something like 70-80% of residences had them. Funny how all that tax money would come in handy now.... The tip of the iceberg I'm afraid. The Greek tax system allows people to basically just volunteer how much money they are earning, and therefore pay tax on. At the last count, there were only 100 millionaires registered in Greece........ Obviously, there are more than this in the land of the shipping magnet...... Their tax embezzlement totals will be massive. Poor checks made by the European governments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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