IN DEFENSE OF HABANOS SA

[PigFish]

Like it or not Cuban cigars are a luxury item. It's like complaining that Krug don't make enough champagne for the common man. That's right they don't, if you want lower cost champagne you buy a different brand, getting hot headed and red in the face isn't going to make the executives at Krug bring out a cheap bottle of bubbly. The argument that 30 years ago they used to sell bottles at a lower price is a moot point, 5 years ago gold was a lot cheaper too.

There is no need to be rude either. I like discussing things with you, there's no need for abrupt and off hand replies.

First mate... I apologize for being rude! I have no excuse. Please accept my apology.

If Krug decided to sell 1 tenth of their wine and 10 times the price, sitting on the 9 tenths, would you still think it is a good idea? Pricing to market is a matter of supply and demand.... or it is just guess work. Leaving a good customer with money in his pocket... while your product sits on a shelf is a poor model. Yeah... I admit it works for De Beers. If one thinks cigars are like diamonds then he/she can have my share!

I hope that you can find that a more civil response.

There will be people who will certainly continue to buy cigars that I see as overpriced and underperforming. If those of you who do this, continue to do this, then the model of high priced under performing cigars will continue, and if you buy enough of them the model may indeed work. I have my doubts. You have your confidence.

In losing me H SA et al will be intentionally discarding a customer that has supported them historically, buying and consuming 1000's of their cigars. Losing me is stupid. I know a lot of Habanos smokers... big money smokers, that are displeased as well. H SA et al, stores more tobacco, grows less tobacco, makes fewer cigars, cuts more jobs and pisses off more seasoned smokers every year. Does Krug sell their wine or store it for senseless reasons? If Krug found themselves sitting on wine... the price would go down or they would go out of business!!! People are apparently clamoring for Krug grape juice. Cuban cigar sales are falling every year! Where is the comparison?

I am not going to argue this point anymore with you. We have irreconcilable differences. You (presumably) see a successful marketing model here, I do not. Neither of us is going to change apparently.

Cheers! -Ray

[CaptainQuintero]

No problem my friend! It is a tough day for everybody!

Please don't think I agree with the HSA direction, if I could have the choice that existed in the 80's I would be in heaven! All I can go on is the half truths that we are fed every year, who knows what is selling and what is sitting. Personally I would have had Fonseca and Cuaba up for the first trim!

All I see is HSA just being one of many companies reacting to changing cultures in the West and Far East. It seems that HSA is at least taking steps to to get in on the new money. They may be selling their soul for more money but they will just be joining the list of hundreds of Western companies who have done that to get more sales in China. We live in an increasingly shallow World were something shiny and new commands huge prices. Just last week someone in China sold one of their kidneys in exchange for an iPhone and iPad! LINK With over one and a half billion consumers like that who needs Western consumers anymore! There is little room for old fashioned values and people nowadays and we are certainly in that group. I just can't bring myself to hate HSA for doing what every other company is currently doing. Maybe I just should do I am sometimes far too easy going for me own good. I see a successful marketing model for the people they are going after, I don't like it but I see the fruitlessness of trying to change it. The best I can hope for is HSA make lots of money in the short term and go back to their roots ASAP!

[canadianbeaver]

There is an extra wrinkle in the Krug vs Habanos comparison. US States are not legislating that Champagne can not be sold or smoked everywhere, limiting distributing and availability of product. Huge labels that discourage drinking do not appear on bottles of Crystale, even though you may drive into a brick wall after consuming one bottle.

Hrumph.

[Colt45]

...if you want lower cost champagne you buy a different brand...

Ding ding ding!

You can, and great quality Champagne to boot. You can't do that with Cuban cigars. Yet.

[CanuckSARTech]

Like it or not Cuban cigars are a luxury item. It's like complaining that Krug don't make enough champagne for the common man. That's right they don't, if you want lower cost champagne you buy a different brand, getting hot headed and red in the face isn't going to make the executives at Krug bring out a cheap bottle of bubbly....

Ding ding ding!

You can, and great quality Champagne to boot. You can't do that with Cuban cigars. Yet.

Colt (and Ray also, above) hit on it here a bit for me.

The comparison with champagne to cigars is almost moot.

IF you said Krug is to Cohiba/Trinidad/EL's, then yes, maybe. Those are individual brands of a product. If they want to market Cohiba/EL's/etc. to the luxury market, so be it. That's what they do with the special books and humidors and Festival auctions and such already.

But to have an ENTIRE product line being marketed so wrong, and distributed/handled like this, is akin to Krug then buying up all the vineyards in Champagne, taking a monopoly over the product, making less product by a 1/4, charging a 1/3 more, and then shelving 1/2 of it, while marketing it to the scotch drinkers while abandoning those who have been their core market for the last X amount of years, etc. That's the kind of mindset / comparison that's going on, IMO.

[CaptainQuintero]

I think you and Lisa missed my point, I could have said Rolex, Ferrari or any number of luxury brands not just Krug. I just picked a luxury item at random. I'm not comparing market shares or embargos I'm talking about marketing as a whole by Ferrari/Krug/Rolex etc..

Cuban cigars as a whole are viewed as luxury products by the general public and while I don't like it, it seems that the current direction that HSA is taking Cuban cigars is to maximise this view with special releases, new flashy bands etc. That way they can essentially produce less (If they wish) and charge more. Anyone can guess at the reason but it seems a fair guess that it is to increase profits while saving produce and in turn increasing their profit margins.

Of course within Ferrari and Rolex etc there are the top of the line and then the 'regular' productions if you wish to talk about the upper tier of Cubans but that's not the point I was making. We could make that point when talking within the cigar community but to the general public, Cubans I think are widely viewed as 'luxury cigars' the same as Ferrari are 'luxury cars'; people generally aren't going to know specific models within the brand.

Again I don't like this, it's just why I think it's happening and that it's probably not fair to blame HSA for doing it.

[geneticdrifter]

I tend to agree with CaptainQuintero's view on the similarities of the way these luxury items are marketed. I would, however, like to play devil's advocate with a question. As a new CC smoker I can't say if quality has gone up or down with the increase in demand, particularly from East Asia. But I can draw another analogy to the Champagne market.

When Jay-Z started hyping Cristal 5-10 years ago sales sky rocketed and quality went down as they pumped out bottles to meet demand. I understand a dislike for having less choice but would the alternative be increased choice with lesser quality? Has that happened with CC?

Personally I would rather have less choice and better quality even if it is at higher prices. I can afford a $50 cigar, albeit not very often. I'll most likely never own a Ferrari or a Bentley.

Great thread.

[canadianbeaver]

I think you and Lisa missed my point, I could have said Rolex, Ferrari or any number of luxury brands not just Krug. I just picked a luxury item at random. I'm not comparing market shares or embargos I'm talking about marketing as a whole by Ferrari/Krug/Rolex etc..

These items cannot really be in the same comparison so much as in they are only sold few and far between in comparison and at probably 500 - 2000 times the price per unit. In theory though, the same principle applies. They are not being legislated out of the market by government for selling; there are no health warnings on them and really the only danger is your spouse may kill you if you bring one home.

But I certainly get your point. As for marcas, vitolas, deleted brands etc, these are issues that are specific to us as knowledgeable collectors to deal with and suffer over. I do not believe this is the big picture. When wine companies put up a bottle in a certain year that is great, folks hoard cases and fill their basements/wine cellars. Only a couple of years later, a wine auction may see these same bottles multiply in price.

The real issue is whether a continuing Cuban government/society will be able to function and meet the demand of this new found lottery win. And if the new cigar production sucks, folks will remember the "good old days" and new sales may be great but the pre 2014 or whatever year it is prices will soar.

L

[Colt45]

Cuban cigars as a whole are viewed as luxury products by the general public....

Again I don't like this, it's just why I think it's happening and that it's probably not fair to blame HSA for doing it.

HSA made a conscious decision to market their products as luxury items, and price them accordingly (this was stated by a HSA head in an article

I read some years back - I think a CA article). If we need to assign it, I guess they deserve their fair share of the blame. On the flip side, I guess any

non-necessity could be considered a luxury item.

When Jay-Z started hyping Cristal 5-10 years ago sales sky rocketed and quality went down as they pumped out bottles to meet demand. I understand a dislike for having less choice but would the alternative be increased choice with lesser quality?

If the quality of the Roederer suffers, we can choose another house. As it now stands, if you don't care for the quality of Habanos products,

you either live with it or stop buying.

[PigFish]

HSA made a conscious decision to market their products as luxury items, and price them accordingly (this was stated by a HSA head in an article

I read some years back - I think a CA article). If we need to assign it, I guess they deserve their fair share of the blame. On the flip side, I guess any

non-necessity could be considered a luxury item.

...Bingo!

Here is a little ditty for you all:

This is the Altadis USA Montecristo product line. While they are still heavy in large ring cigars (for obvious reasons) notice that there are an abundance of choices. People like choices. Choices offer more buying opportunities for more people. Altadis USA seems to get it.

The cigar business is about selling cigars, not pissing off past customers! If you have pissed off a lot of your customers you have clearly done something wrong.

No one on the anti-deletion side is saying stop making fat cigars. We are fighting for inclusivity and not exclusivity. We do not propose a, this cigar or that cigar model. We propose a, this cigar and that cigar model. The exclusivity of the current model has turned us from customers to vocal bellicose critics. There is no shortage of Cuban tobacco. There is only a shortage of market leadership. History has shown that deletions have not helped Tabacuba, H SA et al, make more money or sell more cigars.

Montecristo Classic

 

They say you can’t improve on a legend, but don’t tell that to legendary cigar master José Seijas. He found the highest-grade Connecticut Shade wrapper and combined it with the finest Dominican binder and filler to create a masterpiece of a cigar that would bear the most iconic cigar band in the world. The result – an unforgettable smoking experience truly worthy of its name.

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No. 5

40 X 4"

 

 

Rothchilde (Tube):

52 x 5”

No. 4

40 X 5"

 El Conde (Tube):52 x 6”No. 3:

44 x 5 1/2”

 Toro:52 X 6"Tubo Especial:

44 X 5 1/2"

 No. 2 (box pressed):52 x 6 1/8”Especial No. 3:

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 No. 2 (Box Pressed)52 X 6 1/8"No. 1:

44 x 6 5/8”

 Churchill:54 X 7"Robusto:

52 x 5”

 

Montecristo White

 

With its rich history and reputation, Montecristo has become the standard by which all other cigars are judged. To complement our original Montecristo, we created the new Montecristo White.

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Available Sizes

Minutos (handmade):

30 x 4”

 

 

Rothchilde

52 X 5"

Pequenos (handmade):

38 x 4 1/2”

 

No. 2 (Belicoso):

52 x 6 1/8”

Especial No. 3:

44 x 5 1/2”

 

Toro:

54 x 6”

Montecristo Court (Tube):

44 x 5 1/2”

 

Toro Grande (Tube):

54 x 6”

Especial No. 1:

44 x 6 5/8”

 

Churchill:

54 x 7”

Robusto Grande (Tube):

52 x 5”

 

 

Montecristo Platinum

 

The Montecristo Platinum series sets new standards for handmade luxury cigars. Crafted with a select San Andrés Cubano wrapper grown in the legendary San Andres Valley, along with a rich Dominican binder and a special blend of Dominican, Nicaraguan and Peruvian long filler tobaccos, these exquisite cigars offer a rich, smooth, and sensual smoke.

Available Sizes

No. 3:

44 x 5 1/2”

 

 

Toro:

50 x 6”

Robusto:

50 x 5”

 

Churchill Tube:

50 x 7”

Rothchilde Tube:

50 x 5”

 

Habana No. 2 (Belicoso):

52 x 6 1/8”

Montecristo Reserva Negra

 

This richly flavored box-pressed maduro embodies the perfection and superior quality that has become synonymous with the Montecristo name. Meticulously handcrafted at the celebrated Tabacalera de Garcia factory in the Dominican Republic, the Montecristo Reserva Negra is a notably full- bodied cigar. An exquisite chocolate-brown San Andres Morrón wrapper surrounds a Nicaraguan binder and a blend of Honduran and Nicaraguan long filler to create a flavorful sweet and spicy cigar that’s not to be missed.

Available Sizes

Pequenos (Handmade):

38 x 4 1/2”

 

 

Robusto (Square pressed):

52 X 5"

Corona (Square pressed):

44 x 5”

 

Toro (Square pressed):

54 x 6”

Belicoso (Square pressed):

52 x 6 1/8”

 

Churchill (Square pressed):

56 x 7”

 Montecristo 75th Aniversario

 

Celebrating Montecristo’s 75th Anniversary, this extremely limited production Aniversario cigar boasts the finest Ecuadorian wrapper surrounding a hearty Nicaraguan binder and a tasty and fuller-bodied special blend of Nicaraguan and Honduran filler tobaccos. The result is a wonderfully balanced and flavorful smoke, perfect for any connoisseur.

Available Sizes

Lancero (rat tail):

40 x 7 1/2”

 

 

No. 2:

52 x 6 1/8”

No. 4

44 x 5

 Churchill:54 x 7Edmundo:

52 x 5 5/16”

Montecristo New York Connoisseur Edition

 

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Available Sizes

Boxed Pressed

60 x 6”

 

Montecristo Cabinet Selección

 

Considered by most to be the world’s most famous cigar, the aristocratic Montecristo bears a noble legacy that sets it apart at every level. Now Montecristo elevates the pursuit of perfection to new heights with Montecristo Cabinet Selección, a complex and provocative blend of the finest Dominican, Nicaraguan and Peruvian long filler tobaccos and Connecticut broadleaf binder, hand-rolled in the finest Ecuadorian Sumatra wrapper. The limited edition Montecristo Cabinet Selección is an enticing invitation to savor a fuller-bodied smoke with a distinctively alluring aroma.

Available Sizes

Corona:

44 x 5 1/2”

 

 

Belicoso:

52 x 6 1/8”

Robusto:

52 x 5”

 

Churchill:

54 x 7”

Toro:

52 x 6”

 

 Montecristo

 

Montecristo premium cigars, sometimes referred to as Montecristo Yellow, present the legendary Cuban cigar in a mild Dominican “exile” series that defies comparison to the Havanas. Each rich-tasting cigar sports impeccable construction with a silky, golden wrapper that burns beautifully, a marvelously sweet aroma, and the creamy finish tells you you're smoking one of the world's great cigars. Considered one of the finest cigars on the market, they are a “must have” for cigar lovers of every experience level. Make sure you always have some Montecristo cigars in your humidor. These excellent cigars are only available online.

Available Sizes

No. 3:

44 x 5 1/2”

 

No. 2 (Torpedo):

50 x 6”

No. 1:

44 x 6 5/8”

Double Corona:

50 x 6 1/4"

Robusto:

50 x 5”

Churchill

50 x 7"