A discussion on tasting flavours in Cubans

[adic88]

I wrote the below in response to what a fan of My Cigar Blog wrote to me:

Regarding flavour, I am a bit confused (perhaps is the right word) by the reviews of various cigars. I have always been put off by the approach to reviews that many wine tasters take. One always hears about this or that kind of berry, and so forth, but it often seems highly dubious to me. When I hear the same language being used to describe cigars I wonder to what extent the expectations, and desired to say something about the flavour of a cigars overwhelms ones ability to describe the taste and smell sensation in a way that allows other smokers to accurately know what to expect.

Have you ever observed consistent descriptions of cigars, especially where the reviewer is not familiar with what others have said?

Dear Peter,

Happy New Year to you, may 2011 be kind to you and your kin.

On your question, there have been attempts to translate the wine taster's "flavour wheel" to cigars. While i applaud the efforts, i too have not been able to appreciate it myself too much. http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/inde...showtopic=95707

To me, cigars generally share some very common flavours (Cuban cigars anyways, which i smoke almost exclusively nowadays). Woody (cedar, occasionally pine chips), dark/bitter chocolate, and coffee. These are the base flavours that i think every Cuban cigars will build itself around. The differences between each brand and blend, and vitola within the brand, is how the blender has decided to balance the 3 components, and where to "place" the 3 flavours within the cigar. Some cigars, like the Montecristos generally, frontload the coffee up front in the first couple of inches. Others like the Partagas, tend to build up to the coffee, and rather present chocolate notes in the front.

There is only one exception to the above, i've noticed. And that's the elusive "grassy" flavour profile. This is not a "base" flavour, because while it is dominant in some cigars, and the Cohiba brand in particular, it is quite rare in the general line and amongst the other brands. It's difficult to explain, but to me, it like "tasting" the "smell" of freshly cut grass. If you can imagine what it means like to taste something that you're only used to smelling, then you have arrived to what i'm referring to. It's quite an appealing sensation, and as i said, usually found in Cohibas, but rarely also in other brands, especially in certain Limited Editions. I suspect it could be attributed to the double aging that the Cohiba tobacco is subjected to (nearly all the other brands go through a single aging process before the tobacco is rolled).

So, to recap -- woody, chocolate, coffee, and rarely, grassy. Those are the 4 base flavours. How they are blended, meshed and presented, is the skill of the blender and the hallmark of each particular brand.

There are of course sub-flavours within the flavours. These are much more difficult to describe accurately for everyone to appreciate simply because they are incredibly subjective; the flavours are dependent on what we each have experienced before as individuals. For example, someone who has tasted raw vanilla beans (i have), would know what raw vanilla tastes like. Someone who hasn't, will not. So it's pointless for me to tell you that this cigar has a hint of raw vanilla which i detect due to memory association, unless you have also tasted raw vanilla too. Only then will you know what i'm talking about.

The sub-flavours can range quite wildly. Earthy. Caramel. Vanilla. Fruit -- citrus tanginess. Stone fruit. Berries. Honey. They are only limited by the reviewers range of experience. Good reviewers, in my opinion, have a wide range of tasting experience. Because it is these sub-flavours that give a review its "colour". While you and i may never detect wild berries in our cigars, the next reader might, and will then appreciate the reference.

I hope this helps you understand my reviews better.

Long ashes, mate.

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Just sharing this with you all, with the hopes it'll generate some thought and discussion.

[Domino68]

Very nice explanation. I have always considered that certain taste from Cubans that is hard to describe as the "twang", that I don't seem to get from NC cigars. Of course the flavor of cigars is highly subjective from person to person, but that is what makes this hobby so great.

[Puros Y Vino]

I find my palate is expanding but there are many flavours that still elude me. "Twang" is definitely one of them. Over time you should be able to sense more flavours. Alas, many of us are tied to what are taste buds are capable of. I've also been getting into wine lately. I've enjoyed wine from since I was around 10 YO. But its' only in the past 3-4 years where I've begun studying it, taking courses, tutored tastings etc. It has helped a lot. For me though, if I don't taste it, I won't pretend to. Same goes with cigars. I do taste things like coffee bean, bitter chocolate, leather, cedar, etc. Once in a while I get some exotic tastes such as citrus or anise. I do notice differences between Cuban and NC cigars. I have good/bad of each. In general though. The Cubans really do have something extra special going on.

[Dbone]

Unless you have tasted a flavor yourself, reading a review using these flavors have no bearing and you can't build an expectation of flavor (which is subjective I know). For example I'm familiar with most aspects of coffee, it helps that I drink a lot of it LOL. If I follow a reputal review and I hear dark coffee, sweet coffee, coffee spice, bitter coffee, cream and coffee, I can relate with the taster because I've found those flavors myself.

I could tell my wife how the cigar I'm smoking has wonderful nutty coffee notes, and she won't have a clue how nutty coffee cigar smoke taste like. This relates to Peter's question posed to you Aiz.

[Colt45]

Very interesting, Aiz. I guess the first point would be about blending/flavor. I'm not sure Cuban cigars are blended to taste like anything other than great

tobacco. They're surely blended to try and maintain certain consistent characteristics, But I'm not sure they're blended to mimic outright flavors - but I

obviously don't know.

Secondly, I think in some ways, tasting is acquired with experience (as you've mentioned). Does anyone recall their very first cigar? Was it a sublime

experience, could you detect all nuance, or did it make you want to vomit. Wine? were you in love with your first glass?

As you've also mentioned, I think it comes down to people using memory in describing flavors. Sometimes it's something you've eaten, sometimes

something you've smelled. It might not always be exact, but in describing it in such a way, it gives an indication of what type of flavor the individual

taster is experiencing. At times it might not be a flavor per se, but a certain sensation - buttery, but not necessarily tasting of butter.

Reviews are a very useful tool, and I think most of us with a bit of experience have learned to use them as such and not take them as gospel. As in wine,

it's also helpful to figure out if a particular reviewers palate aligns with yours or not.

[adic88]

Very interesting, Aiz. I guess the first point would be about blending/flavor. I'm not sure Cuban cigars are blended to taste like anything other than great

tobacco. They're surely blended to try and maintain certain consistent characteristics, But I'm not sure they're blended to mimic outright flavors - but I

obviously don't know.

I think the blenders know the properties of their tobaccos and tend to have an idea what will happen if you mix A + B + C in certain amounts. Its probably not a super exact science, but experience must count for something here, on the part of the blender i mean.

[ZAZ]

Wow, great info/comments in this thread. Thanks to all that posted so far -- definitely helpful.

[Colt45]

I think the blenders know the properties of their tobaccos and tend to have an idea what will happen if you mix A + B + C in certain amounts. Its probably not a super exact science, but experience must count for something here, on the part of the blender i mean.

Of course - I should have tried to be more articulate. My feeling is that they're just not blending to try and emulate coffee, chocolate, fruitcake, etc.

Again, I must defer to those with more knowledge on the subject.

[adic88]

Of course - I should have tried to be more articulate. My feeling is that they're just not blending to try and emulate coffee, chocolate, fruitcake, etc.

Again, I must defer to those with more knowledge on the subject.

Yup, agree with you here.

"Come on, Pedro! One more fruitcake cigar pls!" -- i just can't see that happening in the Partagas factory, somehow.

[ZAZ]

"Come on, Pedro! One more fruitcake cigar pls!" -- i just can't see that happening in the Partagas factory, somehow.

[cigcars]

*I used to make the Honduran Hoyo de Monterrey Excalibre Maduro my main "go to" cigar when I knew this was going to be my hobby/and indulgence. This was for years. Then, when I got introduced to and became familiar with habana cuban flavors, I went back to my Hoyo Excaliber and was truly horrified by the flavor...I went "Auugghhh! This tastes like DIRT!!!" in my vocal reaction. Cuban flavor profile...? It's both smooth, sweet, and cool to the tongue when you take your beginning draws. You can sense, as I've said previously, maple and raisins in the aroma. The taste at the back of the tongue is of the same, along with a touch of honeyed brandywine candy as you exhale the aroma back into the air of all those flavors combined. It is truly a wafting of the senses to a land of flying unicorns above pink and pastel rainbows of smoking pleasure and fine relaxation.

I'd researched that Mr. "Hister" as in Adolph, didn't smoke at all; didn't drink at all; and didn't eat meat at all. Hell, THAT'S WHY HE WAS SUCH A MESS! If he'd have had a Coke and a smile, a big prime rib dinner, and then topped it off with a fine Havana seegar afterwards, he might've been able to SIT DOWN somewhere! WHO wants to be tetched off when you're exploring the wafting aromatic dreams carrying you away on the Heavenly puffs of a Wonderful Havana?!

[mm12]

Very interesting topic. Personally, I would add earth, cream, and leather to your list of base flavors. Cream is rarest and I usually only find it as a base flavor in some Cohibas and some Hoyo de Monterreys. I feel that in a few cigars the cream is totally predominant and the coffee or chocolate or wood or whatever is more around the edges. Earth and leather are pretty common for me though.

I feel like when I review cigars, I tend to stick to the ones where I can I identify a fair amount of specific flavors (in many cigars I can't). I just never feel like writing up a review that says "It's mainly woody, with a bit of cream and a bit of spice". I've tasted a lot of very interesting flavors in cigars, but with some cigars, I feel like I can't give much of a description that goes beyond very general terms. The cigars I want to write about are the ones that manage to surprise me. The ones that offer something a bit different than just a combo of the standard/typical Cuban flavors. I'm sure this bias is somewhat common among amateur cigar reviewers.

[Warren]

Interesting topic.

What I think I have learned from being included in some of the video reviews is that the ability to recognize different flavor profiles is not always easy to do sitting by your self.

When you make it a social thing and someone suddenly says hey can you taste that (insert flavor here) you sometimes find that that prompt enables you to recognize a flavor that you may have missed if smoking alone.

I think the best way to educate your palet is to learn from those around you, if you can.

[adic88]

Interesting topic.

What I think I have learned from being included in some of the video reviews is that the ability to recognize different flavor profiles is not always easy to do sitting by your self.

When you make it a social thing and someone suddenly says hey can you taste that (insert flavor here) you sometimes find that that prompt enables you to recognize a flavor that you may have missed if smoking alone.

I think the best way to educate your palet is to learn from those around you, if you can.

Alternatively, reviewing a cigar with friends, especially if you're a new smoker, can have an undue influence on how you taste the cigar.

You can't really describe the flavour, but when someone says, "vanilla", then you may create an immediate association out of deferment to that person's experience, or because you want to be included (its a psychological thing, rather than a conscious behavioral trait). If we were sitting alone, and given more time to think about it, you may come to a different conclusion.

I've actually experimented with this, in a devious way. Smoking cigars with new smokers, i've intentionally tried to influence their perceptions of their cigars, and 9 times out of 10, they defer to me and tend to agree with my impressions. Example, when a cigar is woody, i tell them that this is chocolatey. To a man, they nod their head in agreement. Of course, i tell them afterwards that this is exactly what they should not succumb to (i.e. they should actively develop their own flavour impressions, independent of what others may say).

[mrbagel]

In my eyes tasting a Cigar is more if a skill than anything else, a skill that takes practice and patients.

Im still new to Cigars and it will take me at least ten of the same Cigar to develop a flavour profile for that particular Cigar, as i work my way through a box i tend to notice one main flavour during one smoke and then attempt to pick up on this flavour again on the second and third smoke, once it has gotten to the point when i no longer need to search actively for a flavour to taste it i will push it to the back of my mind and attempt to find another flavour in the cigar and just like flavour number one will try to consistently pick up this in following smokes.

It can be tricky to say whether or not im actually tasting what i think im tasting or if it's simply me imagining something but regardless i end up having a great smoke and each Cigar develops its own personality in my mind.

[Warren]

Alternatively, reviewing a cigar with friends, especially if you're a new smoker, can have an undue influence on how you taste the cigar.

You can't really describe the flavour, but when someone says, "vanilla", then you may create an immediate association out of deferment to that person's experience, or because you want to be included (its a psychological thing, rather than a conscious behavioral trait). If we were sitting alone, and given more time to think about it, you may come to a different conclusion.

I've actually experimented with this, in a devious way. Smoking cigars with new smokers, i've intentionally tried to influence their perceptions of their cigars, and 9 times out of 10, they defer to me and tend to agree with my impressions. Example, when a cigar is woody, i tell them that this is chocolatey. To a man, they nod their head in agreement. Of course, i tell them afterwards that this is exactly what they should not succumb to (i.e. they should actively develop their own flavour impressions, independent of what others may say).

When you put it that way I have to agree with you. The mind is a powerful thing and we often take for granted its power to make you feel things that may not be true and perhaps there is a touch of the sycophant in all of us.

I still feel there is some value in the shared experience . It's a journey and one I think best shared.

I have a question for you though.

Considering the argument you put to me do you think the whole review process is a waste of time?

[dicko]

great thread. I find writing down the flavours, body, smoke etc that I have experienced helps me to get into the tasting aspect of smoking cigars. I write reviews here or jot them down on paper. I found one from when I first started....it was like "creamy, full bodied, pretty peppery"...very vague stuff. Now they are marginally better and writing things down has helped.

I find citrus and sweet earth as a core cuban flavour, close to what I feel is the twang (imho).

[adic88]

Considering the argument you put to me do you think the whole review process is a waste of time?

It's only a waste of time if the purpose of the review is to deceive the reader. But if the reviewer is honest and well versed with cigar brands and flavours, then i do believe that the review will give the reader a "general" idea what to expect. Don't tell me a Montecristo will give you that distinct Cohiba grassy sweetness, because that's just not true. But if you tell me that a Montecristo is a spicy, peppery cigar with tones of bitter chocolate, and leather, and, if i'm lucky, a bit of roast caramel, then that gives me a good idea what to expect, and whether i'd fancy those flavours myself (though, i could experience the same cigar differently, it probably won't be TOO far off that).

I've bought quite a number of cigars from Czar's based on their incredible video reviews (and what other's have reviewed too), and i've found that my palate agrees with about 80% of what the reviewer's say, which i feel is about as accurate as something as subjective as cigar tasting can be.

Also, the experience of the reader makes a big difference as well -- if you've smoked cigars for a bit of time, and have a general range of experience with the various brands, then you'll take the reviews that claim, "fruity orange with a pinch of strawberry jam" with a large dose of salt.

[tigger]

...the flavours are dependent on what we each have experienced before as individuals.

I couldn't agree more.

I further think that the descriptors we use are often "as close as we can come" to what we're tasting based on prior experience.