Who's got stories of an "almost" scam/lie from purchasing a cigar?

[CanuckSARTech]

Please keep this kosher, people - as per the forum rules, let's not mention names/sources. Mods, if this post/thread is inappropriate, or gets to be, feel free to ban/close/etc.

But, I'm just wondering something....

Who has stories of an "almost" lie or scam that you were almost hooked in by, either from a cigar retailer or someone else, when looking to buy a particular cigar or whatnot? What tipped you off? How did you approach the situation, and how was it rectified (what did you kindly do to work with the retailer maybe to make things right?)

We've got lots of threads on counterfeit cigars, and what to look for and what not, and also of some online webpage/retailer issues with some humidor drawers/supplies and such. But, I'm wondering if there aren't some helpful pointers that people may have out there, about how something almost went sour for them, and maybe tips for others that could find themselves in a similar situation, and how to nicely work forward to make it right.

[CanuckSARTech]

I'll start.

Early last week, after receiving my earlier good news (see FINALLY! Some great Christmas news....), I had to go to a local city to do some paperwork submitting to a recruitment office that I've been working with. Well, I decided to stop into a local chain outlet for me to look into getting a few cigars to try, to see what I might want to look into to buy future boxes.

Anywho, I ended up getting a San Cristobal de La Habana "La Fuerza" cigar (OEB, Oct 2006 box, about $27 CAD for a single stick), and a Partagas Serie P. No. 1 cigar (unknown code, couldn't find it on the jar, about $32 CAD for a single stick). I was also looking at some of the Cohiba Behike BHKs, and some other stuff.

So, talking with the guys there, I went over to the P1 jar that they had in the walk-in humidor, and lo and behold, the cigars were absolutely and utterly covered in mold!!! Since there was another customer in the humidor at the time, I just stayed quiet about it, and waited until the other customer was gone, not wanting to make a big deal of it and ruin their other sale (the other customer wasn't even looking at the P1 or nearby stuff). So, while waiting, I checked out a few of their hygrometers on the shelving. I have no idea the make/manufacturer of them, I think they could be old Credo models, but I noticed that all of them read exactly 70%/70. Now, I've been in this humidor before, a number of times, and even granted that this is wintertime for us, it was extremely noticable to me that it seemed excessively moist and humid in there. Something didn't seem right. So, once the other customer left, I made a gentle comment about this ("Ummm, fellas, these P1's are covered in mold."), the unthinkable happened.

I was told, "No, that's just bloom. Some cigars get bloom over time."

A few quick points here. No, I'm not necessarily a regular in this store, but they do know who I am and are on a first name basis with me. I go into the store two or three times per year, along with my other b&m dealer about twice as much, and generally only buy a handful of singles to try each time. So, I'm not a "big fish" as I've heard them put it before (I generally don't buy whole boxes here in Canada, as the taxes and markups for us are HUGE, and I don't have a great retailer relationship with them to even try to sway me to do this). However, they do know me enough to know and understand that I know at least as much as they do on a basic level about cigars.

And, I damn well know enough that mold is generally green/blue/yellowish/etc., and/or that mold and plume are vastly different beasts. To anyone who knows or has seen mold, this was damn near textbook.

So, I said politely, "Ummm, no, that's mold, not plume - it's green, and it's quite damp in here."

To which their reply was, "Well, let's see." (Yes, they haven't even looked at them yet when I made my first comment.) But then, after looking and inspecting, the reply was, "Well, you do know that cigars can get plume over time, as the oils crystalize, and the cigars age."

Gasp.

These are supposed to be the finest cigar retailers in our frozen north. Again, they know me, know that I know cigars, and they should know cigars too.

And, as he was telling me this last tidbit, he began removing each one of these P1's from the jar, and using a clean paint/dust brush to gently brush off the mold (and not doing so in the humidor - he did this, thankfully, over by the purchasing counter, and not where the dustborne/airborne mold spores could potentially infect other cigars).

Now, mold is not a major issue. I still ended up purchasing one (I picked the least moldly out of the jar, and he cleaned it off for me). And no, I didn't get a discount, nor request one, nor was offered one. I'm not a big enough / regular enough customer of theirs.

But, it absolutely astounded me that they would try to play it off like that. To me, let alone to even a newbie customer. **** happens. You can easily say, "Yeah, but mold doesn't hurt it on the outside of the wrapper like that really. We can brush it off for you, maybe give you a discount off for that. We're struggling with our humidification system right now, it's freezing up due to the cold weather," you know, some sales attempt crap like that.

But I was horrified that they described it and acted the way they did. While I'm not a big customer for them, it definitely now assures me that I can't fully trust their stock. While this could be an isolated issue (I've never had a problem there before), I've noticed lately that their humidification seems to be wonky. If they're not calibrating their humidifier and/or hygrometers, or the systems are just getting old and less-accurate, how can I trust the stock that they have sitting in there, marinating in that overly-moist environment. Just from feeling the air, I'd love to have had one of my hygrometers (calibrated semi-annually and verified accurate to within +/-1%), as I was sure that it was in the 74-78% RH level, if not more.

So, with my original post on this thread, about maybe having some tips to work forward with a retailer to make it right, what can I offer? Unfortunately, I don't think much in this case. In the vaguest thought on the matter, I think that the biggest thing is that you need to be willing to work with your retailer, and try your best for a positive outcome, without being a jerk about things. I was courteous enough to them to not make a braggart scene when there was another customer in there, and yet they still try to lie/deflect to the level that they did. I'm hard-pressed to buy stock from them as it is, due to our taxes and prices, and while that isn't their fault, they do need to work harder to make up the difference in customer service. In this case, they failed. And, it's my first issue with them. Now, I just need to shop smarter in the future.

And, I know that many would post, "just shop with Czar's", and that's what I'm gratefully doing for many of my boxes. But, we do need to have some other/outside/b&m retailer sources, and we need to work closely with them too.

Everyone's prone to mistakes, but it's how the mistakes are fixed that shows the true level of skill of customer service that a person/retailer has. Buyer beware.

[PigFish]

I think this is an interesting topic "Nut" and certainly don't really think that it should be taken down. However, no one in their right mind these days is accusing me of good judgement!

With that said, and as usual, I will take the topic in a direction that suits me. Not that it is completely off your line, but in a direction that points a finger back at the consumer, and even the producer and not necessarily at the vendor.

I have been around this venue awhile. Yeah, I have seen my share of scams and vendors of fraud. I have been approached by more than one 'lounge' singer to buy 'authentic' Cuban cigars. I used to get approached a lot, because I smoke a lot! These were the heady days of lawful public smoking. In many cases, due to my own lack of interest in street products, the individual would usually give me samples knowing that I was in fact a serious cigars smoker as I am almost always armed with a half dozen of my own cigars. You might say that I had potential customer, or hapless victim written on me due to the fact that i did not need to be convinced to smoke in the first place. I have even been induced to try these.... awful, God awful even, cigars and would usually carry on the facade and not bother to try to convince the 'vendor' of his third world ersatz Cuban crap. Educating the world about fake cigars is not my lot in life. I mean why ruin a perfectly good day telling someone that they are selling fake cigars when they don't want to know anyway? It is like trying to tell someone that their tire is flat and having them fly you the bird because they think you are trying to steal their parking spot. Helping friendly folk is a pleasure to me; setting the world back on its axis is not my cup of tea! When asked is often when you will find me helping, otherwise you are on your own.

As far as my spin on the topic is concerned I have seen my share of roasting of vendors. I have seen vendors reputations ruined, at least for a brief term anyway due to the careless words of an ignorant moron, or even a mob of ignorant morons!!! You name the vendor (rhetorically speaking) and I can tell you a story of a bunch of boobs spreading a fallacious rumor about the providence of his cigars. Honestly... I have heard stories of fake cigars about every popular on line vendor.

The point is that there is one somewhere, someone gunning for almost everyone. And this hobby is filled with giant egos, dimwitted, misguided do gooders and a host of train wrecks looking to happen if given half the chance. People are easy to believe in the dishonesty of their fellow man and it does not take much to get them to carrying torches to burn down his house! I have seen this happen more times than I can count.

Are there true stories? Why sure. But when you are dealing with a corrupt form of government that supplies our consumables, people who don't care about human rights in the first place, it is not a far stretch to find them dishonest in business. This core dishonesty breeds to all levels of the market and makes it very difficult to actually identify a white, gray or black market Cuban cigar.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would actually place a large stake on the legitimacy of any Cuban cigar. The more you know of the corrupt nature of the entity in charge of their production, the more uncomfortable you get with any form of legitimacy documentation. You simply rely on your own judgment and taste, and trust those who provide you with honest service and reliable product that you yourself have the ability to verify based on your own experience.

I have bought cigars from around the world that are bad enough for me to label as fakes. Were they though? I will leave that to your impartial judgement. Were they rolled at the end of the day when the ligero was gone? Were they forced to make a quota? Was the tobacco, or the blend just not right? While I think I know my way around a Cuban cigar, it is that knowledge of their inconsistency, the innate being of the individual Cuban cigar, that not only makes it great, but makes it flawed. I would not bet my life on a cigar, on any cigar, and that includes the one I see rolled personally in Cuba!

Thanks for reading. -Piggy

[Ginseng]

And, I damn well know enough that mold is generally green/blue/yellowish/etc., and/or that mold and plume are vastly different beasts.

I disagree. I've seen plenty of moldy cigars in my time and it has invariably been fluffy and white. The colored varieties, which are more injurious to the flavor and aroma of the cigar, are usually found at the foot or inside the cigar. When I see moldy cigars in the shop, I move on. Without exception, it has been unfruitful to try and "educate" the shopworker. Scam, ignorance, apathy? The result is the same. Mold on overhumidified cigars in a shop's walk-in (or humi case) are to be avoided not for the fluffy white stuff, but rather the unpleasant effect of extended overhumidification on the cigar. At this point, the mold is entirely beside the point with respect to the damage a cigar has experienced.

That said, specks and tufts of fluffy white mold on properly-humidified cigars (it can and does happen) are merely to be brushed aside and the cigar itself enjoyed. And as for whether the cigar is sporting plume or mold, if it is properly stored, burns well, and smokes well, does it really matter? There has been all manner of debate on the nature of plume/bloom over the years and I've not seen a reasonable conclusion or consensus on what its presence tells about the cigar, its performance, or its history. And so plume is a red herring. I'll leave it to the reader to find the very interesting thread on plume generation.

Wilkey

[cigcars]

*Son, you haven't seen NUTHIN' yet (about human fallacies when covering their behinds or making a buck)! I could write a book - oh - that's right, I DID! THREE of 'em! I know that what you saw and experienced is quite disheartening as far as this guy's KNOWING you, KNOWING he was wrong, KNOWING the cigars were bad, etc., etc., ETC. I've been through this very thing SO MANY TIMES, as far as the above, in all walks of life (not just trying to pass off a crappy, molded cigar) until it's just a case of "Oh, well," and needing to have acceptance. Otherwise you end up disillusioned, fatalistic, deciding to "give up" on life, become a martyr, an addict, ad infintum.

You're still a young man. I know you've probably experienced SOME things that make you have to re-think your positive outlook on life. Wait a while. PARTICULARLY as a new Peace Officer!!! I know your original premise was about "how to recognize..." when it comes to not purchasing a bad smoke - but I HAVE to just make this quick comment to you, both as a fellow botl and as a friend. You're going to be exposed to downright fraudulent criminal activity that'll be so deep - you won't even be outraged...you'll actually be congratulatory of them (in your private thoughts - and I'm not talking about the Wall Street bankers either!) You'll find that crooks/criminals are the greatest actors in the world. The smallest, 2 cent, cheap dime store hood will literally outdo anything Laurence Olivier could do, as far as, "I didn't do that!" That wasn't me!" "You see officer...", etc.

I'm thinking (correct me if wrong) it was probably more surprising and upsetting to you that as long as you've known this guy and shopped in his store, he would try to pull the fast one that he did. Well. Try being at the afterwards of a funeral. You truly won't understand HOW Aunt Millie, whom you've known and loved ALL YOUR LIFE could be the VULTURE she's behaving like!

In conclusion (FINALLY, everybody says!) one of the prime things I look for are the surprising availability of vitolas we all know have been discontinued for example, Punch Black Prince which I've seen on a few untested sites. And surprising low, low prices for brands and sizes that are not possible in ANY venue. I once made it a point to get on the search engines and see if there were any watchdog groups for us lovers of the leaf that would expose those online retailers caught selling fakes. The results have been EXTREMELY helpful. Among the hundreds (and in our realm, dozens) of sites that offer our product out there, every now and then, one does have to chalk up their experiences as a valuable one if, say, you spent $200 to know you'll never lose another $200 like that!

Hope this was some help, Canuck, and please feel free to shoot me a message if you'd like MORE verbose sharings and chit-chat!

[CanuckSARTech]

I disagree. I've seen plenty of moldy cigars in my time and it has invariably been fluffy and white....

No, no, absolutely granted, Wilkey. My bad. I didn't mean to necessarily pigeon-hole mold and plume colours and patterns. What I meant more, in essence, is that mold varies, but is unmistakeable from plume, with that crystaline and veiled appearance that it has on the surface, not fluffy and colony-grouped like mold is. And yeah, I too am iffy about the plume benefits over time - I much prefer a marbled/mottled oily wrapper, new or old doesn't matter - plume is secondary, in my opinion, similar to your thoughts.

And yeah, the debate over mold and plume negatively/positively affecting your cigar defintely varies. No, I don't want a cigar infested with mold if I can help it, and I definitely will pass it by if it's really overly excessive, especially on the inside.

But, it was just more a thing about how some can succumb to the "hot air effect", either as a customer or a retailer - how, maybe given the economic climate, people will say and do anything for the sale. And with this particular case, it just shouldn't have happened.

But all noted, Wilkey. Thanks.

Any other stories out there???

[CanuckSARTech]

...You're still a young man. I know you've probably experienced SOME things that make you have to re-think your positive outlook on life. Wait a while. PARTICULARLY as a new Peace Officer!!! I know your original premise was about "how to recognize..." when it comes to not purchasing a bad smoke - but I HAVE to just make this quick comment to you, both as a fellow botl and as a friend. You're going to be exposed to downright fraudulent criminal activity that'll be so deep - you won't even be outraged...you'll actually be congratulatory of them (in your private thoughts - and I'm not talking about the Wall Street bankers either!) You'll find that crooks/criminals are the greatest actors in the world. The smallest, 2 cent, cheap dime store hood will literally outdo anything Laurence Olivier could do, as far as, "I didn't do that!" That wasn't me!" "You see officer...", etc...

All granted, Cig. Thanks for the tips - I guess.

Trust me, while I know I still have a lot to learn, in all aspects, I'm not a complete spring chicken either. I know there's all sort of scams that go on, in people's everyday transactions with each other.

I just meant to put out a recent item that popped up for me, and seeing if there's others worrying about issues for themselves. That's all.

[Ginseng]

No, no, absolutely granted, Wilkey. My bad. I didn't mean to necessarily pigeon-hole mold and plume colours and patterns. What I meant more, in essence, is that mold varies, but is unmistakeable from plume, with that crystaline and veiled appearance that it has on the surface, not fluffy and colony-grouped like mold is. And yeah, I too am iffy about the plume benefits over time - I much prefer a marbled/mottled oily wrapper, new or old doesn't matter - plume is secondary, in my opinion, similar to your thoughts.

And yeah, the debate over mold and plume negatively/positively affecting your cigar defintely varies. No, I don't want a cigar infested with mold if I can help it, and I definitely will pass it by if it's really overly excessive, especially on the inside.

But, it was just more a thing about how some can succumb to the "hot air effect", either as a customer or a retailer - how, maybe given the economic climate, people will say and do anything for the sale. And with this particular case, it just shouldn't have happened.

But all noted, Wilkey. Thanks.

Any other stories out there???

Well, how about "made with genuine pre-embargo Cuban tobacco." That there is the granddaddy of them all and I've gotten this pitch from the cig catalogs all the way to the manager at the local brick and mortar telling me that he knows a guy who smuggles in boatloads of "special" cigars from Cuba for him exclusively. And to add insult to injury, the guy tells me he smokes these and can tell that they actually contain Cuban tobacco.

Wilkey

[sblevit]

As an American you quickly learn to run from any story that starts off with, "My friend is a Cuban guy who goes to Cuba and brings back boxes of cigars . . ."

[sepp]

In a B&M in Calgary, several sticks displayed almost proudly, upright in the box at eye level, were riddled with beetle holes. Upon further inspection the entire box and two around it were also infested. When I mentioned the prominent display of infestation the owner assured me the probelm had been taken care of and the beetles were a result of dealing with a grey market dealer whom he would not deal with again.

C'mon, at least remove the evidence.