Has hope gone for unfettered US travel to Cuba?

[El Presidente]

Keep this non political

With control of the House of Representatives to the Republicans and the rise of staunch anti Cuba campaigners such as Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Mario Díaz-Balart and Marco Rubio is there any hope for US travel restrictions to be eased? Keeping in mind the dems had 2 years to change the laws but apparently stalled just when it seemed likely.

Are our hopes for a FOH party in Havana 2011/12 dashed? Will Jimmy2, Piggy, Colt, Wilkey and I ever have a Mojito and cigar on the roof top of the Raquel hotel?

Is this Deja Vu all over again?

[CanuckSARTech]

Well, the party could still go on, but the 'Mericans would just have to make it by way of my place. You know, get a few receipts here, a couple of notes and phone calls there, and VOILA!!! Instantly, I'm having a one week vacation at my place for all the American BOTLs on here.

Needless to say, that we'll move the location of my living room down to Havana, and the Americans would all have to fly out of Toronto, sight unseen. But....shhhh....that'll be our little secret!!!

Seriously though, I don't know, Pres. I think the Cuban issue is just a political hellraiser in the 'States. Everything that the embargo was supposed to be about, China, Russia, and North Korea has all pushed far graver buttons, and travel and commerce is unfettered with those countries in comparison. I feel it's just about politics and political resolve, for better or worse, and is heavily subject to the whims and desires of a Cuban immigrant population in the U.S.

I think we could still look towards a gathering in 2011/2012. But whether the embargo itself will be dropped, that's probably unlikely though. I could see a travel restriction easing, but nothing of real change unless Obama wins a 2nd term.

[PigFish]

Keep this non political

With control of the House of Representatives to the Republicans and the rise of staunch anti Cuba campaigners such as Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Mario Díaz-Balart and Marco Rubio is there any hope for US travel restrictions to be eased? Keeping in mind the dems had 2 years to change the laws but apparently stalled just when it seemed likely.

Are our hopes for a FOH party in Havana 2011/12 dashed? Will Jimmy2, Piggy, Colt, Wilkey and I ever have a Mojito and cigar on the roof top of the Raquel hotel?

Is this Deja Vu all over again?

No need for it to get political my friend. The embargo has outlasted many a president and many a congress. There is more to it than meets the eye, but that is only speculation on my part as I have no proof my outrageous theories. I think that it is an enduring monument to idealism and I will leave it at that.

My friend, there is nothing more alluring than the thought of meeting with you and the gang again... and on the forbidden island no less! You pick the strip club this time!!!! -LOL Damn... I am gonna' be dreamin' about Cuban sunsets tonight and skinny tan cigars!

-Piggy

[Colt45]

In my opinion, and it's my simple opinion, nothing will really change as long as professional politicians are elected to office - and I don't just

mean Cuban - American relations. When a president says "we got shellacked", it tells me he doesn't see a "we" - he sees us and them.

When some politicians say our goal is to keep a president from getting reelected, it tells me they are also only concerned with their own agenda.

Most of them come off as pieces of **** who are only concerned with and will do anything to get elected, stay in power, and further their personal

agendas.

It's like they're all on some separate plane where they exist for themselves, not representing or answering to the people who elected them, with

little repercussion for their actions. It's political no matter how it's sliced.

I can get to Cuba if I need to get there......

[BlackFriar]

Keep this non political

With control of the House of Representatives to the Republicans and the rise of staunch anti Cuba campaigners such as Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Mario Díaz-Balart and Marco Rubio is there any hope for US travel restrictions to be eased? Keeping in mind the dems had 2 years to change the laws but apparently stalled just when it seemed likely.

Are our hopes for a FOH party in Havana 2011/12 dashed? Will Jimmy2, Piggy, Colt, Wilkey and I ever have a Mojito and cigar on the roof top of the Raquel hotel?

Is this Deja Vu all over again?

Unfortunately China, Russia, etc... all had major trade advantages to them. Let's face it, at the end of the day money talks. It is a damned shame, but in the grand scheme of things what does Cuba have money wise that would be of interest to the US? No your earlier posts and responses from others are probably spot on that the current regime will need to collapse before Uncle Sam is willing to lend a hand. Pretty damned sad for a country that lies just 90 miles from Florida.

[cigcars]

In my opinion, and it's my simple opinion, nothing will really change as long as professional politicians are elected to office - and I don't just

mean Cuban - American relations. When a president says "we got shellacked", it tells me he doesn't see a "we" - he sees us and them.

When some politicians say our goal is to keep a president from getting reelected, it tells me they are also only concerned with their own agenda.

Most of them come off as pieces of **** who are only concerned with and will do anything to get elected, stay in power, and further their personal

agendas.

It's like they're all on some separate plane where they exist for themselves, not representing or answering to the people who elected them, with

little repercussion for their actions. It's political no matter how it's sliced.

I can get to Cuba if I need to get there......

*DITTO - and THANK YOU! An earlier post said if Obama gets a 2nd term...which he probably MIGHT if he stops pitsy-patsying to a bunch of jerks I think are treasonous in their attitudes. It's one thing to have an educated disagreement with the man. Those of us who love and support our current president have not liked or agreed with everything he's done. But to just say NO everytime just for the sake of attacking him - yeah, I thought that was called Treason. Even so, he just needs to tell them all to Go To HELL, and maverick out, himself, as McCain was nicknamed. Then he MAY get the respect he deserves - Hell, they're attacking him for just taking his own wife out for a date, working in the white house with his shirt and tie off, et. al. ad infinitum. THEN he just may also spearhead removing an embargo that's being carried on more for spite than anything else. Nobody gives a damn about communism anymore. It's our sock and underwear wearing fellows aboard planes people are "tetched up" about now (yeah, I got political, too)!

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

One can understand why Cubans in the United States are so passionate about the political situation back home: this is a natural reaction for refugees. If we were in a similar position, we'd probably think and act likewise.

[jawofboston]

One can understand why Cubans in the United States are so passionate about the political situation back home: this is a natural reaction for refugees. If we were in a similar position, we'd probably think and act likewise.

I agree with you, but I also think this has to be about the freedom of your average American to travel, trade, and communicate with whoever they want. There is no compelling national security issue at stake. So you basically have one vocal minority - who I love and respect - pushing the government to restrict the freedoms of the majority. Not cool. We trade with Vietnam for Christ's sake!!! We lost over 50,000 men in that war and yet we've reconciled and moved on and people can now exchange ideas and goods which I think is a great testament to humanity.

[Colt45]

*DITTO - and THANK YOU! ......

Please don't misconstrue - in my eyes the president is just as bad, deaf, and blind as the rest of them.

To add - I don't believe change in Cuban - American relations, or world relations for that matter, will come through governments. I think it will

more likely come through art, music, etc - through people in spite of government meddling.

[MontrealRon]

Please don't misconstrue - in my eyes the president is just as bad, deaf, and blind as the rest of them.

To add - I don't believe change in Cuban - American relations, or world relations for that matter, will come through governments. I think it will

more likely come through art, music, etc - through people in spite of government meddling.

So true, Colt.

Positive change is never initiated by government, of whatever stripe.

It is only when those in power smell and taste fear,

the fear of the people whose true power they usurp,

that social change can take place.

It is the pressure from below that forces progress.

Evolution, and sometimes revolutions,

happen because the population has reached a breaking point,

and will no longer tolerate the status quo.

Politicians either give in to the inevitable, or are swept away.

US citizens will be free to travel as they please only when

they choose to demand their rights, rather than beg for them.

Americans, let us remember, broke away from Great Britain,

after a long and bloody struggle,

because they refused to obey unjust laws,

and refused to tolerate any longer an oppressive government

that acted against their interests.

[bassman]

One can understand why Cubans in the United States are so passionate about the political situation back home: this is a natural reaction for refugees. If we were in a similar position, we'd probably think and act likewise.

So why can US citizens travel to China & Vietnam? Plenty of people from those lands in the USA that had nasty stuff done to them by the Commies.

If you want to visit Cuba, learn how to work the system. I'm a US citizen & have been to Cuba several times- legally with OFAC license in hand & Cuban stamps in my passport.

[MontrealRon]

So why can US citizens travel to China & Vietnam? Plenty of people from those lands in the USA that had nasty stuff done to them by the Commies.

Because American corporations, both "legal" and "criminal organizations",

controlled the vast majority of Cuba's economy pre-1960,

and Cuba's governments were entirely subject to those interests.

The Cuban revolution grew out of the same basic soil as did the American revolution,

the desire of the population to overthrow foreign oppression.

Those American interests that were dispossessed of their lands, factories and monopolies

never forgave the Cubans for taking back their country.

Just as those Americans in the 1770s who remained loyal to the Crown

fled to Canada, where they became influential in that country's development

and subsequent political directions,

so those Cubans who formed the small elite class that benefitted by the US occupation,

fled to their protectors as the Cuban revolution took hold.

Those Cuban-Americans, allied with the corporate interests that previously owned Cuba,

have been able to block all attempts at Cuba-US reconciliation.

They are able to do this by their concentration in politically volatile areas such as Florida,

where they can play off both parties against the other for their support.

American capital never owned the Soviet Union, China nor Vietnam.

US disputes with these countries were geo-political, not monetary.

[PigFish]

Please don't misconstrue - in my eyes the president is just as bad, deaf, and blind as the rest of them.

To add - I don't believe change in Cuban - American relations, or world relations for that matter, will come through governments. I think it will

more likely come through art, music, etc - through people in spite of government meddling.

There is noting clean about politics. It is either fought extensively within the realm of existing law, fought within the existing framework to enact new law, or violently outside written law in favor of natural law or tyranny. Money also works!!! Like it or not. While China's gov't is still what I consider communist, they have evolved into what is coined now as State Capitalism. The fact remains that it is better to forgo idyllic political failure and starvation for a plate of food. Food cost money and requires industry and the motivation to run with it. Industry and economy ARE foreign relations if you want them or you have lost your sovereignty and are forced to negotiate with others for it (industry, food, credit etc.). Governments typically work only temporarily by the rule of law. Then they operate most of their lives at the end of a barrel.

Sorry mate, I don't see singing kumbaya has got anyone anywhere! The world deals in energy, food, treasure and blood and I say unfortunately... not song and dance. Politicians deal in song and dance (rhetorically)... look where that has taken the world. There are no perfect people and therefore perfect governments. Even theocracies, probably the worst example of all, while ostensibly established by the word of God (any mans' God) are creations of man and therefore corrupt and imperfect. The key to government is understanding mans' nature, not attempting to perfect it; by understanding natural law and dare I say it a force larger than government from where natural law emanates and is unalienable from the individual man... all men (and women) will one find the greatest good for all men as a collective.

We have had a shot at it as a few societies have had. Hopefully we don't squander it.

[Habanos2000]

As long as Fidel is alive I don't see the US changing anything substantive regarding the embargo. Once he goes, all bets are off and that will be good for everyone.

As far as traveling there is concerned, "we" can get there, and do, if we want to. Let's face it, there are plenty of islands in the Caribbean that are pretty darn nice and much more up to the standards of what I myself would expect when I go on vacation. But I think the true question is, do we really want to go to Cuba or is she just like the hot chick at the office where you'd like to "pay a visit" just because you're not supposed to? Personally I don't like my government telling me where I can't go, but I don't lose sleep over not being able to go to Cuba.

[cigcars]

*I'm hearing the points by all sides, and yes, we don't get anywhere just holding hands singing "Fa LaLaLaLa" under the Maypole. It just makes for nice film coverage for "warm fuzzies" and "Awwww!" Yet, for the freedom minded folks to do what they please - yes, it will take GOVERNMENT to decide NOT to enforce its will with gun, bayonette, fines and penalties for enjoying those privaledges. And the true, driving motivator behind ALL this is MONEY! Or mineral & natural deposits & wealth of soil and so on. And yes, I too contacted the treasury/travel dept. and was heartily answered and indulged with all the laws, regs, etc. about whom can go to Cuba and who can't under the "guidelines"...

[PigFish]

*DITTO - and THANK YOU! An earlier post said if Obama gets a 2nd term...which he probably MIGHT if he stops pitsy-patsying to a bunch of jerks I think are treasonous in their attitudes. It's one thing to have an educated disagreement with the man. Those of us who love and support our current president have not liked or agreed with everything he's done. But to just say NO everytime just for the sake of attacking him - yeah, I thought that was called Treason. Even so, he just needs to tell them all to Go To HELL, and maverick out, himself, as McCain was nicknamed. Then he MAY get the respect he deserves - Hell, they're attacking him for just taking his own wife out for a date, working in the white house with his shirt and tie off, et. al. ad infinitum. THEN he just may also spearhead removing an embargo that's being carried on more for spite than anything else. Nobody gives a damn about communism anymore. It's our sock and underwear wearing fellows aboard planes people are "tetched up" about now (yeah, I got political, too)!

I can't tell you the full extent of how I disagree with your implications, accusations and summery. We will likely not agree on this so I am not going to go at you or anyone on an individual level but this post is partisan and political.

I would like to make some general points. The 1st Amendment of the US Constitution provides PROTECTION FOR EACH AMERICANS' RIGHT TO QUESTION HIS/HER GOVERNMENT. It does not grant them the right, it protects it. Criticism, petty, peevish, partisan or otherwise is an unalienable right of Americans. It matters not who the president is/was... right, left, black, white, Dem., or Rep., ***** or straight!!! It is not un-American or treasonous to criticize.

In my mind this is a dilemma of ignorance (I am not being specific as to who is ignorant but am generalizing). Americans, many of them, don't understand their innate rights or from where, and from whom, they originate. They are not government granted, nor are they privileges which can be revoked. They are gifts of God to all men (women inclusive) to all people of the world and not just Americans. Americans have in many ways forgotten this gift or have become lax and never learned it. In many parts of the world it is unknown due to forces of tyranny... and for those people I will pray. Americans on the other-hand have had a shot understanding and possessing innate natural rights. American framing documents outline the restrains of government and are for the sole purpose of preserving natural rights and limiting government, defining government and promoting individual liberty. They don't grant rights, while they do enumerate some core specifics. I believe these documents to be inspiring to all men as they define a government as close to perfection as has ever existed on this earth. That is arguable.

The blame for the current state of affairs throughout the world is in my mind not one of those seeking individual liberty, but lies with those who choose to control it, whether they are American, Cuban or otherwise!

-Piggy

[cellinisart]

I can't tell you the full extent of how I disagree with your implications, accusations and summery. We will likely not agree on this so I am not going to go at you or anyone on an individual level but this post is partisan and political.

I would like to make some general points. The 1st Amendment of the US Constitution provides PROTECTION FOR EACH AMERICANS' RIGHT TO QUESTION HIS/HER GOVERNMENT. It does not grant them the right, it protects it. Criticism, petty, peevish, partisan or otherwise is an unalienable right of Americans. It matters not who the president is/was... right, left, black, white, Dem., or Rep., ***** or straight!!! It is not un-American or treasonous to criticize.

In my mind this is a dilemma of ignorance (I am not being specific as to who is ignorant but am generalizing). Americans, many of them, don't understand their innate rights or from where, and from whom, they originate. They are not government granted, nor are they privileges which can be revoked. They are gifts of God to all men (women inclusive) to all people of the world and not just Americans. Americans have in many ways forgotten this gift or have become lax and never learned it. In many parts of the world it is unknown due to forces of tyranny... and for those people I will pray. Americans on the other-hand have had a shot understanding and possessing innate natural rights. American framing documents outline the restrains of government and are for the sole purpose of preserving natural rights and limiting government, defining government and promoting individual liberty. They don't grant rights, while they do enumerate some core specifics. I believe these documents to be inspiring to all men as they define a government as close to perfection as has ever existed on this earth. That is arguable.

The blame for the current state of affairs throughout the world is in my mind not one of those seeking individual liberty, but lies with those who choose to control it, whether they are American, Cuban or otherwise!

-Piggy

Saved me some time....Thanks

[Jesuscookies]

Don't mean to be offensive Rob, but in all seriousness, you had hope?

After 50+ years of an embargo, That suddenly some dashing young American President of liberal values would come in and, "poof" embargo lifted?

As colt so eloquently explained, politicans are scumbags. They exist in packs like hyenias, to survive, and hunt out only that which directly helps them. So unless Cuba has a **** load of oil they are willing to sell or some other megloconglomeration that our rich power elite can use to profit from, there is no hope.

On another brighter note this PLPC I'm smoking is splendid!

[El Presidente]

Don't mean to be offensive Rob, but in all seriousness, you had hope?

I am a born optimist

Unfortunately I concur with your argument. Maybe it was the hype of a new start but I took a sip of the koolaide. Not deriding Obama, just come to the realisation he is no better or worse in this matter to the Bush's, Clinton, Reagan etc etc.

Cuba to me is not the Castro's or communist politic. It is friends who are suffering as a result of a local and international dynamic they cannot change.

The US politicians can deal with the Noriega's and Arafats of this world. Tiananmen square and the Saudi's exporting of terrorists. Yet a country so close and with a population desperate for support through nothing more than the same level of engagement as those listed prior is deemed a step too far.

I really can't understand it. I am certain the quickest exist of the castro regime will be through open trade and the resultant opportunity/exposure for the populace.

if this was a game of football, you would change tactics after the first or second quarter. 50 years?

There is no honour in either side of this political stoush, US or Cuban. Politicians from both sides stand on the heads of 11 million people seeking reprieve.

[mykeuva]

I really can't understand it.....

The problem is that it's just not a political issue anymore. It's not a subject brought up during elections. It's simply an automatic thing to do these days, to not lift the embargo. Majorities in both major parties don't discuss it. That, to me, is the issue. It's not considered a topic to debate anymore, and so the embargo will simply continue without discussion. Something needs to happen to bring the subject back up, whether it's some sort of regime change in Cuba, or a drastic alteration of the government/economy by the present regime. Beyond that, I don't see anyone from either major party bringing up the embargo out of the blue.

[Ken Gargett]

keep this non-political and then you do the exact opposite????

was never going to happen first term.

second term a possibility but will depend on how local pollies see it affecting their chances.

i think it is as simple as that.

[BolivarSmoker]

I can't tell you the full extent of how I disagree with your implications, accusations and summery. We will likely not agree on this so I am not going to go at you or anyone on an individual level but this post is partisan and political.

I would like to make some general points. The 1st Amendment of the US Constitution provides PROTECTION FOR EACH AMERICANS' RIGHT TO QUESTION HIS/HER GOVERNMENT. It does not grant them the right, it protects it. Criticism, petty, peevish, partisan or otherwise is an unalienable right of Americans. It matters not who the president is/was... right, left, black, white, Dem., or Rep., ***** or straight!!! It is not un-American or treasonous to criticize.

In my mind this is a dilemma of ignorance (I am not being specific as to who is ignorant but am generalizing). Americans, many of them, don't understand their innate rights or from where, and from whom, they originate. They are not government granted, nor are they privileges which can be revoked. They are gifts of God to all men (women inclusive) to all people of the world and not just Americans. Americans have in many ways forgotten this gift or have become lax and never learned it. In many parts of the world it is unknown due to forces of tyranny... and for those people I will pray. Americans on the other-hand have had a shot understanding and possessing innate natural rights. American framing documents outline the restrains of government and are for the sole purpose of preserving natural rights and limiting government, defining government and promoting individual liberty. They don't grant rights, while they do enumerate some core specifics. I believe these documents to be inspiring to all men as they define a government as close to perfection as has ever existed on this earth. That is arguable.

The blame for the current state of affairs throughout the world is in my mind not one of those seeking individual liberty, but lies with those who choose to control it, whether they are American, Cuban or otherwise!

-Piggy

Well said, Piggy. You echoed my thoughts exactly.

[El Presidente]

keep this non-political and then you do the exact opposite????

was never going to happen first term.

second term a possibility but will depend on how local pollies see it affecting their chances.

i think it is as simple as that.

1. I am bagging politicians of all persuasion not people.

2. Can you see a second term with the majority he enjoyed in the first?

3. Castro's don't die easy. It could be another 15 years at this pace. Our mutual mates don't have time to wait.

[asmith]

But I can still travel there so I'm not sure what the issue is here?

[cigcars]

I can't tell you the full extent of how I disagree with your implications, accusations and summery. We will likely not agree on this so I am not going to go at you or anyone on an individual level but this post is partisan and political.

I would like to make some general points. The 1st Amendment of the US Constitution provides PROTECTION FOR EACH AMERICANS' RIGHT TO QUESTION HIS/HER GOVERNMENT. It does not grant them the right, it protects it. Criticism, petty, peevish, partisan or otherwise is an unalienable right of Americans. It matters not who the president is/was... right, left, black, white, Dem., or Rep., ***** or straight!!! It is not un-American or treasonous to criticize.

In my mind this is a dilemma of ignorance (I am not being specific as to who is ignorant but am generalizing). Americans, many of them, don't understand their innate rights or from where, and from whom, they originate. They are not government granted, nor are they privileges which can be revoked. They are gifts of God to all men (women inclusive) to all people of the world and not just Americans. Americans have in many ways forgotten this gift or have become lax and never learned it. In many parts of the world it is unknown due to forces of tyranny... and for those people I will pray. Americans on the other-hand have had a shot understanding and possessing innate natural rights. American framing documents outline the restrains of government and are for the sole purpose of preserving natural rights and limiting government, defining government and promoting individual liberty. They don't grant rights, while they do enumerate some core specifics. I believe these documents to be inspiring to all men as they define a government as close to perfection as has ever existed on this earth. That is arguable.

The blame for the current state of affairs throughout the world is in my mind not one of those seeking individual liberty, but lies with those who choose to control it, whether they are American, Cuban or otherwise!

-Piggy

*My statements probably came across as such due to time & space constraints attempted to be observed. I DON'T have condemnation about criticisms of anybody in high (or low) places. And I will be brief as to the fact that it is a bit hard to banter with folks when it comes to *Money *Religion *One's Mamma and *POLITICS. Yes, and again - my observations were NOT about just the condemnings of our president so much as the non-stop, obvious, nit-picking, 3yr. old, thumbsucking cheap shots SOME folks HAVE to make at him - JUST for the sake of making them. In other words it was indicative of there being a "problem" which everyone here is trained to deny. At that, I will leave that be. This is a forum of numerous nationalities that shouldn't be required to bear our American burden. Also, I do recall - this was the question about opening the doors to Cuba - not with the intention of falling off into other "problem" realms. Shaloam