the church drifts a little further away from reality

[Ken Gargett]

i find this truly astonishing. if the church wants to alienate yet more people, here we go. a funeral is not a celebration of life? the people behind this have the intelligence level of some of our politicians.

about the only thing i agree with is hearing the collingwood song at funerals - often.

FOOTY club songs and popular music have been banned from Catholic funerals under strict guidelines sent to priests and funeral directors. The guidelines for Catholic funerals, sent by Archbishop of Melbourne Denis Hart, also declare that a funeral should not be a "celebration" of the deceased's life.

"Secular items are never to be sung or played at a Catholic funeral, such as romantic ballads, pop or rock music, political songs, football club songs," the guidelines say.

A Herald Sun survey two years ago found the Collingwood theme song was one of the most popular requests at funerals.

Other popular songs included My Way by Frank Sinatra, Time to Say Goodbye by Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman, and Bette Midler's version of The Wind Beneath My Wings.

The new guidelines say a Catholic funeral should never be "a celebration of the life".

They say any celebration should be done at a social occasion before or after the funeral.

Bishop Les Tomlinson, Vicar General of the Archdiocese of Melbourne, stood by the guidelines.

The main focus of a funeral should be "commending the deceased person to God".

He said footy and other popular songs were more appropriate at a wake rather than a church service.

[El Presidente]

I don't have problem, their Church their rules. The church isn't a place of fun. It is there to instill sadness/fear and lifelong misery (marriage).

Marketing geniuses

[BonVivant]

I don't have problem, their Church their rules. The church isn't a place of fun. It is there to instill sadness/fear and lifelong misery (marriage).

Marketing geniuses

Go Baptist?

[El Presidente]

Go Baptist?

Those "Happy Clapper" churches make me nervous (no offence to the Happy Clappers amongst you )

[Ken Gargett]

I don't have problem, their Church their rules.

tell that to the endless children on the wrong end of priests, so to speak.

i remain flabbergasted.

[El Presidente]

tell that to the endless children on the wrong end of priests, so to speak.

i remain flabbergasted.

Plenty of great priests Ken who work tirelessly for community and the less fortunate and have had nothing to do with sexual molestation and who also disagree with dumb catholic church doctrine. Don't sully them.

The really good ones leave or work in the field away from the political crap. Tragedy.

[cigcars]

*I'm sure you all have heard the story of the devil showing up at church one day, and all the congregation fled out in stark terror except for one old man. The devil hoofed his bat winged, cloven footed monstrosity of himself over to this congregation member and asked, "Don't you know who I am!?" Old man casually said, "Yep." "Don't you know I'm cause of fear, terror, evil, blight, plight and all the rest of it!?" "Yep." "Aren't you afraid!?" Nonchalantly, "Nope." "WHY NOT!??" thundered the fallen angel of the abyss. "Because I've been married to your sister for 42 years..."

[Ken Gargett]

Plenty of great priests Ken who work tirelessly for community and the less fortunate and have had nothing to do with sexual molestation and who also disagree with dumb catholic church doctrine. Don't sully them.

The really good ones leave or work in the field away from the political crap. Tragedy.

i could not agree more re the good priests.

my problem tends to be with the church rather than those excellent priests who certainly do not deserve to be associated with the crap that dills from on high proclaim - you've met my good mate, father sholto.

good, hard working priests, a big tick.

the moronic and dangerous rubbish that far too often emanates from the church, not so.

[Leopolis Semper Fidelis]

Plenty of great priests Ken who work tirelessly for community and the less fortunate and have had nothing to do with sexual molestation and who also disagree with dumb catholic church doctrine. Don't sully them.

The really good ones leave or work in the field away from the political crap. Tragedy.

The best priests, truly holy men dedicated to their God and flock, I've come across had no problems accepting "dumb Catholic Church doctrine". Living their lives in conformity with it made them what they were - a personal observation. Some even liked cigars!

[MIKA27]

I'm a Roman Catholic however I'm the first to say the church is way behind the times, and they wonder why people don't attend in the numbers they used to?

The church has a bad reputation with many of their priests (Not all), I find going to Church that is so low key, far too boring and tiring also and as such, I don't bother.

I used to attend a catholic primary school back in the day, went to church every school day as well as Sundays. As far as a service goes, nothing has changed.

Now the church is banning music?

Funerals for one are meant to be a celebration of ones life and thereby remembering the persons likes, etc. I figure music would be a part in that?

I do agree however that there should be a line drawn with some music. Nobody wants Iron Maiden played at a funeral.

[KB24]

I was born and raised in the Catholic Church, attended Church every Sunday from the time I was born till I was 18 years old. I am now 29 and have come to realize that the Catholic Church is the biggest joke and unless some serious changes are made, young people will continue to separate themselves from it.

Quick story, my now wife and I met with a priest at the church we used to go to when we were younger prior to picking a place to get married. As soon as he asked us where we live and found out we lived together the whole conversation changed. Let's just say he didn't approve. After dropping multiple "ion" words such as masturbation, ejaculation, fornication etc... I got up in the middle of his speech and told him "thanks for confirming my exact thoughts on what's wrong with your church" and walked out. My wife was in complete shock as was he.

[Colt45]

Interesting. If I share the beliefs and choose to belong to a church, I feel the onus is on me to adhere to church doctrine, and that it's not

the responsibility of the church to bend my whims.

Using Patrick's marriage example, why would I ask to be married in a church when I knowingly break church laws? Ask for last rites, or a

funeral mass when I never truly believed?

There are all kinds of organizations around the world that have membership requirements - don't agree, don't join. And certainly most if not

all religious groups have their shortcomings - at least to those who don't believe or belong.

As to playing any kind of anthems etc during a funeral mass, I think I'd find that a bit absurd, and probably agree that would be for any

post-mass celebration.

[Warren]

Ken the problem with this post is the title.

The church has never been close to reality.

Let's face it Ken, if it was nobody would be bringing cases of wine to your door.

All you would need to do is turn the tap on and review it.

[Warren]

This is what I plan to have on my head stone.

Here lies an atheist .

All dressed up and nowhere to go.

[KB24]

Using Patrick's marriage example, why would I ask to be married in a church when I knowingly break church laws? Ask for last rites, or a

funeral mass when I never truly believed?

Colt,

This is kind of like a political thread where we can go back and forth all day and everyone will get all fired up. Let's not do that. I just think that as a 29 year old and for the younger generation of people who grew up in the catholic church, times have changed but the church hasn't and that's a problem for a lot of people.

-Patrick

[matthew261]

I actually happen to be an Episcopal Priest. Now...that will put me in good stead with some of you, poor with others, and most of you will likely not give a damn. However, I thought I might offer my unique perspective on this topic.

We have an unofficial saying in the Episcopal Church, "heretical maybe, tacky never." Typically we prefer approved liturgical music for any occasion in the Church, however we are prone to make pastoral calls when necessary (normally at the request of a grieving family member). My favorite was a request that we process out of the church following the funeral to Willie Nelson's "On the Road Again." Not exactly a great theological choice, but I have to admit I smiled all the way down the aisle.

As for the comments regarding the Church being out of touch with humanity, I have to admit in some cases that is definitely true. However I also lead a medical mission to Honduras every year and we are in touch with humanity in a very tangible way with about 2000 villagers who normally don't receive health care of any sort. We've recently established a year round clinic there to help sustain health in the village (Delicious del Norte). Furthermore this is just one example of the many ways my particular parish serves humanity.

The big "C" Church has inflicted damage over the centuries, but I would still make the claim that we've done more good than harm.

Finally, Ken...I'd be happy to allow whatever music you desire at your funeral especially if it's anything by the Boss.

[Colt45]

This is kind of like a political thread where we can go back and forth all day and everyone will get all fired up.

Far from my intention, and my comments are not directed at you (or anyone, really). But I do like the marriage example. I can't think of any of

my friends who had church weddings that had any business doing so. And there is good reason I did not get married by a priest in a church

But again, I guess my main point is that if I don't believe in the teachings, I don't think I should ask the teachers to change what they believe in,

what they believe is the word of their god - I should move on. I can join one of those non denominational churches that tries to cater to all, but

who in the end really have no real beliefs to speak of (tongue in cheek).

And just to be open, I'm not very religious, and enjoy talking about religion about as much as I do politics.......

[Wiley]

Wow, another punch in the face from our liberal/atheist brethren. Thanks!

I am Roman Catholic. My family has been Catholic since we stopped killing Christians a thousand years ago. I attend mass regularly. My children go to Catholic schools. I read my Navarre study bible regularly (with a cigar!) I listen to Christian and Country music.

The Judeo-Christian faiths are about obedience. Submitting to the will of God. God and his rules are not subservient to whatever happens to be "with the times" (the whims of Man.) You don't have to like it. You just have to obey.

The Roman Catholic Church is a human enterprise, and imperfect. It does make a good faith effort to keep Christians on the path as defined by Christ and his disciples 2000 years ago. It does not make changes to accommodate current cultural values.

As far as the molestation of children goes, I believe it's perfectly valid to complain about the failures of the Church's institutions to police their members. But stating or insinuating that any significant percentage of priests are molesters is not based on fact, and is really just hostile propaganda and rampant stupidity.

Thank you Colt for your posts.

[El Presidente]

Wow, another punch in the face from our liberal/atheist brethren. Thanks!

Wiley...with all due respect the Catholic Church punches its own face repeatedly.

I am a former Catholic with children in catholic schools. Attended church weekly until the new parish priest from nigeria wanted to raise $160k to build a prayer room at his parish so he could pray better. Final straw. Anyway it was built. I left and was not the only one. The notion that we raise the money for communities in Timor or PNG or our own country didn't quite stack up.

Their church. Their rules. I have no problem with that.

So many great priest I have known over the years who do so much great work. True heroes. Many of them shake their head at Rome, question the need for celibacy, question why they are working into their late 60's due to a lack of priests and yet women are shunned.

They signed up to the catholic church and until they step out then "their church, their rules" stop whinging.

Same goes to anyone who enters a Church. In this case it was built by a "club" RC ROMA and they have strict rules of membership. Shape up or ship out and find a new club but stop whinging.

[Ken Gargett]

Finally, Ken...I'd be happy to allow whatever music you desire at your funeral especially if it's anything by the Boss.

excellent. if i fall off the perch any time soon, please do.

[Ken Gargett]

i am the first to admit that i am not well versed in church lore/law and many others understand it better and are certainly far more comfortable with it but i am puzzled with this, their church, their rules bit. that doesn't seem to fit at all. and i am not looking to put any of our more religious members on the spot but shouldn't it be god's church, god's rules? and i am leaving aside the other fairly relevant debate re this as to the existence or otherwise of said god. for these purposes, we'll allow that to be assumed.

i also, though i'm not sure everyone does, assume that the rule of law in each of our various countries, does take precedence.

shouldn't a church reflect the wishes/dogma/doctrines/whatever of said god (and for me, this can apply to whatever religion flicks your personal switch)? not just somone who is prominent in said church saying this week no music, last week we'll stone for adultery, last year we'll have the inquisition?

i know there has to be something i'm missing.

and while we are on this, as mentioned, i do believe that there are a great many people within the church who are genuine and do great work. but explain to me how it could possibly reflect god or god's wishes or however it works to have such a huge cover-up with what was done to so many children? did those people in positions of power genuinely believe it was god's wishes that they protect the criminals who did this? and why didn't more of these good people step up and condemn it (and this is not intended to be restricted to the catholic church). why were they not handing them over to authorities and acting as witnesses in cases against them, rather than seeing them shifted to other regions, often where the abuse continued? they were told be superiors to keep quiet? that hardly works - the nazi defence, we were just obeying orders.

if there is a hell, then there are going to be a great many members of the various churches clogging the halls.

how can those outside the said various churches ever be expected to take then seriously or respect them/their churches? it is they who have sullied all within their church, not those of us on the outside looking in. and those many undoubtedly very good people suffer from it. i don't see how 'their church, their rules' covers this.

[El Presidente]

As told to me by a good priest friend over a cigar. Paraphrasing:

"Churches" are built by man and hence inherently flawed.

"Good Deeds" are a reflection of the noblest aspects of man and hence God.

I work in the former and strive for personal and institutional change through the latter. Some days are crap"

Ken, institutional churches are an amalgam of society itself. The predominantly good, the misguided and the bad. There is too much good done to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I truly respect those who have the discipline and faith to work for a better church which reflects the aims of the teachings of ****** (add whichever one you want).

A church however is their interpretation of ******* teachings. Their Church, their rules. You don't have to buy it but to remain a member you may have to fall into line.

The Catholic church (which I grew up in) is a constant battle internally between the right, left and moderates. No different to most political parties. The right is the biggest faction and controls administration and head office. The closer you get to grass roots (helping the homeless, refugees, 3rd world programs etc) the more of the moderates and left you tend to find. Good people in all factions. Misguided people in all factions.

[Ken Gargett]

As told to me by a good priest friend over a cigar. Paraphrasing:

"Churches" are built by man and hence inherently flawed.

"Good Deeds" are a reflection of the noblest aspects of man and hence God.

I work in the former and strive for personal and institutional change through the latter. Some days are crap"

Ken, institutional churches are an amalgam of society itself. The predominantly good, the misguided and the bad. There is too much good done to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I truly respect those who have the discipline and faith to work for a better church which reflects the aims of the teachings of ****** (add whichever one you want).

A church however is their interpretation of ******* teachings. Their Church, their rules. You don't have to buy it but to remain a member you may have to fall into line.

The Catholic church (which I grew up in) is a constant battle internally between the right, left and moderates. No different to most political parties. The right is the biggest faction and controls administration and head office. The closer you get to grass roots (helping the homeless, refugees, 3rd world programs etc) the more of the moderates and left you tend to find. Good people in all factions. Misguided people in all factions.

you think i'm hard on the church/religion and you compare them to political parties. harshest thing i've ever heard. not even i'd go that far.

[frenchkiwi]

shouldn't a church reflect the wishes/dogma/doctrines/whatever of said god (and for me, this can apply to whatever religion flicks your personal switch)? not just somone who is prominent in said church saying this week no music, last week we'll stone for adultery, last year we'll have the inquisition?

yes, but like any human institution, it relies on people's interpretations of what "god's dogma" is. and different people/communities have different opinions ... which doesn't mean they are all "right" and we should all lapse into relativism, especially not in the christian case, where there seem to be at least a few "absolutes" involved.

so in the case of the funeral as a christian ceremony, there must be some lines you can't cross in terms of what's christian and what's not. e.g. strippers jumping out of coffins would prob be a bridge too far. i think modern secular humanists (dominant in western culture) try to have their cake and eat it too when they accuse religions of being "intolerant" every time they draw a line somewhere... when they are drawing lines all over the place e.g. secular capitalist "democracies" is the only way etc. (only a total relativist can be tolerant in the absolute anyway, and i've yet to meet one!)

now as to where the line is drawn, comes down to debate and interpretation of foundational rules, whatever they may be.

in any case these bishops can be accused of being "dour" for not having pop anthems, but if they want all-sacred ceremonies focused on commending people to god and separate the remembrance bit with strippers at the wake, you can see what their point is. (as to whether they are just trying to re-assert their traditions rather than any strictly christian principles... there's prob a decent argument to be made for that)

my 2c but interesting topic.

p.s. good luck with the bledisloe tonight - methinks you'll need a lot of it.

[mazolaman]

Shame about the music thing though,I've had "Hooray,the which is dead" from The Wizard of Oz on tape for years now!

To believe in whatever you like is your own perogative,but when it impinges on everyone else,then it isn't fair.

Over here,almost every week,we are hearing of more examples of abusing Priests being covered up or moved on to abuse again.Mostly in Ireland,the most recent story in Belgium,where the police have discovered that abuse took place in almost EVERY parish in the 70s.

As the police search for victims,they have discovered that 16 have already committed suicide.

Also,the Catholic stance on birth control is a disgrace,in poorer African countries women having 6 kids,where they cannot feed them.

This kind of malpractice covers most religion,as far as I can tell.Including Islam.Women being stoned to death,people believing it is the will of their deity to blow themselves and numerous others up.

I find it amusing that in Judaism,women are not allowed to show men their hair(as we will obviously be driven mad with lust),so they shave it off,and wear a wig.Work that out.

Pretty much all the countries who practice Abrahamic religions don't seem to mind a bit of war and violence.

Imo,having to believe in any religion is an inability to accept that we are here as a lucky break,pure chance.There is no controlling hand or beardy bloke,smiling fondly down on us.The beauty of the sun,sea,mountains,love,laughter are all pure chance.

The nuttiest,and pretty paranoid religion is the one all the celebs go for,(it will remain nameless,as they hunt you down if you give em bad press!)(happened to my friend who was researching them,they landed at his door asking him questions,and telling him all his personal details,very threatening).Y'know,the one where the more money you pay,the higher level of religious piety you achieve!

Bonkers,all of it.

Not that I've given it much thought....!