Is capitalism/democracy dead?

[El Presidente]

Topic of Fridays Deck discussion

Would love your input without party political comment.

Summarizing our discussions.

Has capitalism/democracy gone the way of communism as a failed social experiment?

The counterbalance to corporate greed appears to be government regulation (which has moved to all aspects of society).

Have we reached the point where the rights of the individual have been supplanted by the greater good of the state?

If we now regulate for the greater good of the state do we not destroy the fundamental crux of capitalism which is the striving of the individual for commercial and personal growth?

Unfettered capitalism has shown itself to be a dangerous commodity (environmentally, socially and economically). Government Intervention has shown itself to be a creeping vine reaching into all aspects of society choking individual freedoms once taken for granted. Is it the case that neither has proved it can be trusted?

Is it too late for a balance and is it fanciful to believe that such a balance could be found given the diametric opposite objectives of pure Capitalism and Government/democracy?

Where are we headed in the next decade?

The "Deck" covers all the big issues

[Ken Gargett]

Has capitalism/democracy gone the way of communism as a failed social experiment?

are you kidding? the day capitalism finishes is the day the last human leaves the planet. have a look at cuba, one of the last remaining communist countries and how the individuals have been forced to act, in the minor way they are allowed, in the most capitalistic of methods. those that want a better life (if not part of the govt) are out there trying to do something or sell something to earn a few extra bucks.

The counterbalance to corporate greed appears to be government regulation (which has moved to all aspects of society).

everything else posed as a question. the sad fact is that govt regulation is necessary, as much as it might be detested, because without it, there will be close to financial anarchy. the problem is getting the balance but just where that balance is never stops moving.

Have we reached the point where the rights of the individual have been supplanted by the greater good of the state?

are we talking australia? where?

sorry - got bored with the rest.

[jawofboston]

I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US we have enjoyed almost non-stop growth since about 1982 with one minor speed bump around the first gulf war and then one after 9/11. That growth was the result of low taxes and relatively free markets.

The latest crisis IMHO was a combination of bad US government policy (promoting home ownership by allowing semi-government agencies to buy up bad mortgage debt) and a world awash with excess liquidity. It will pass, like all crisis. It's pretty clear that Americans still largely support free market economics, and are not in favor of more intrusive government. Obama is already getting serious push-back over policies that most of us see as more appropriate to Europe.

One other thing, regarding the environment: would you rather take a swim in a random lake in China or the former Soviet Union, or in the US? Socialism is the greatest threat to the environment.

[habanohal]

Capitolism is going as a thing of the past here. Obama wants everyone too be under their thumb. Its slowly turning into socialism

[ARRV]

Not sure if I am entirely on point (always a good way to start a post) but I was thinking to myself this morning (independentyly of this post!) while walking to work that it is hellishly ironic that personal rights such as smoking are being taken away as rapidly as possible by so called democratic governments while in so called communist countries (or even 'less democratic' countries) the same rights flourish - of course while others, such as political / religious rights may not.

So I guess it depends on which specific rights one is loioking at. With any level or form of government there will be rights taken away. Just depends on which government you have as to which rights you lose.

I think the dynamic of state vs indvidual is always at the crux of every decision a government makes - usually they are trying to find the right balance to get voted in next election. And I think that in terms of a capitalist society it will always be that way. It is a true balancing act - at the moment the government feels emboldened by an economic crises to legislate at random in relation to economic rights.

As for government intervention on individual freedoms, well i think that is not necessarily connected to an advance against capitalism per se but rather I think it is a symptom of modern democracy - people in government always have this need to be doing something - no one wants to stand there and say, "over the last 3 years everything stayed bascially the same and everyone was happy". Instead to feed the media beast or whatever people are constantly providing new initiatives etc. And that always ends up attacking invidiual freedoms.

The future? Eventually the balance will tip too far if governments over-reach. No matter what governments think and legislate they cannot change what people like and enjoy. People will continue to behave as they like irrespective of the law. People tend to simply ignore bad laws.

So the future - have faith in individuals and not governments.

[El Presidente]

excellent post.

I want to point out it is not directed at any leader (Obama/Rudd etc). It is a global phenomenon and it should be discussed as such.

Ken, I never pointed to communism as a role model. Apologies for boring you. Head back to trying to find your pants

[tugboat]

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty—power is ever stealing from the many to the few. The hand entrusted with power becomes the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening into a despot. Only by uninterrupted agitation can a people be kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be smothered in material prosperity.

We’ll always be destined to ride on the razors edge. For the foreseeable future human nature won’t allow anything else.

[dicko]

how bout some words from our recently abdicated figurehead on the FOH logo, Winston Churchill:

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

Capitalism is predicated on growth, democracy the poltical system that legitimises it. Both good systems but far from perfect. Both will take a lot of the world out of poverty and keep developed countries stable. Only problem with a system based on growth is that the world has finite resources so managing a large proportion of the world 'developing' and expecting the same quality of life people in the 'west' has, will be the greatest challenge socially and environmentally the world will face.

[Cubanface]

Has capitalism/democracy gone the way of communism as a failed social experiment?

are you kidding? the day capitalism finishes is the day the last human leaves the planet. have a look at cuba, one of the last remaining communist countries and how the individuals have been forced to act, in the minor way they are allowed, in the most capitalistic of methods. those that want a better life (if not part of the govt) are out there trying to do something or sell something to earn a few extra bucks.

Exactly......hey i thought we weren't allowed to talk about US politics on the forum...Churchill once said (I'm sure of all you elders know) Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest. People are naturally greedy though. It's in our DNA. It seems as though those that work the hardest and the most often in the Democracy should get the most. I hope for the sake of humanity that Capitalism stays until we leave the planet.

[El Presidente]

Exactly......hey i thought we weren't allowed to talk about US politics on the forum...Churchill once said (I'm sure of all you elders know) Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest. People are naturally greedy though. It's in our DNA. It seems as though those that work the hardest and the most often in the Democracy should get the most. I hope for the sake of humanity that Capitalism stays until we leave the planet.

The topic has nothing to do to about US politics. It is about the global system of capitalism/democracy.

[nocsious]

When the standard of living provided by the state exceeds the standard provided by non-skilled labor, then capitalism erodes. More and more individuals become wards of the state and rationalize that they deserve the support. Those individuals then become easily manipulated into a voting block that perpetuates their dependence on state aid.

The blob grows bigger and bigger, sucking resources from the producers.

We can't even educate our children to the high school level in this country. These children are having children. Without significant innovation, or a new natural resource to exploit, it's really just one big ponzi scheme until someone gets stuck with the bill.

[bunburyist]

To me capitalism is as close as we can get to playing true to our animalistic desire to look after ourselves and our kin, whilst also maintaining a structured order in which we can have peace (....ish) and where everyone is relatively content as we all have a chance to make it. Not sure it's a inherent human need, but once you've tasted freedom, it's impossible to give it up. Only democratic communities seem to offfer this.

Every other type of state - theocratic, totalitarian, communist....have all failed. Either on their own or in competition with democratic capitalist states.

Until something better comes along, I'm backing that horse. The risk of course is that with every bit of drama that comes along - 9/11, SARS, Iraq, Afghan, swine flu, credit crisis, global financial crisis - real or not.....we seem to lose a bit more control in favour of bigger government.

[khomeinist]

Well this thread is certainly amusing. Step away from the ideology! Don't pick up a political philosophy unless you know its firing mechanism! Etc Etc

Seriously though.... the posed question (which many avoided to expound on their various mechanistic theories) is certainly reasonable. What will happen (or continue to happen) to capitalism in the upcoming decades as globalization continues to expand and change the overall economic system?

I see the problem as one of Corporatism. Allow me my own mechanistic interpretation. Capitalism in its (supposedly) pure state involves competition, efficiency, fair profit, and other defensible characteristics of a well-maintained, pragmatic human economy. The problem (as I see it) is the loss of those fore-mentioned qualities in a corporate system. As Corporatism expands globally (WTO is just one part of this) we will certainly see less 'pure' Capitalism and more state-sponsored Corporatism. Even Statism is now limited as global linkages are so strong that a butterfly flapping its wings in Athens (Ok.... that is one big m-fing butterfly) can cause massive rippling effects globally. I am not opposed to globalization per se. I enjoy buying and selling certain products in a wider marketplace. That being said, I do think that the effects of globalization on domestic politics will be a major problem in upcoming decades. Call this a loss of sovereignty or a loss of democracy.

So.... Democracy? Please. Has this ever existed in a pure form beyond the municipal level? I have an intense dislike for politicians.... so whatever happens to our beloved 'democracy' is only of marginal interest to me.

Capitalism.... will hum along.... albeit in a form that may prove increasingly unfavorable to small-scale entrepreneurs.

I will refrain from commenting extensively on US politics.... but just allow me the observations that 'Obamacare' and the soft responses to both Wall Street and BP fit into my system fairly well. Corporatism folks. Ok. Enough of that. What is going on in my humidor?

[samb]

Government Intervention has shown itself to be a creeping vine reaching into all aspects of society choking individual freedoms once taken for granted. Is it the case that neither has proved it can be trusted?

This is where the good ol constitution is supposed to protect us (in the US at least). There is supposed to be a seperation of the governments reaching arms into the lives of its citizens, but it does seem like more and more they find things to blame their reasoning on. Things such as terrorism, which is of course real, but it allows for the government intervention in the lives and business of its own people.

I think the real problem/reason for the intervention of the government is the introduction of policy/procedure/rule/ and the growing power (or lack thereof) of communication between leading nations of the world. This is not to say that we should all unite, because of course there would be no agreement, and this would give WAY too much power to the Man.

[habone]

NEW WORLD ORDER!!!

[brutusthebuckeye]

it's really just one big ponzi scheme until someone gets stuck with the bill.

Yep!!!!!!

[Guest rob]

good post Khommie

[habone]

ANARCHY for me please...thank you!!!

[sw15825]

I don't think it is dead. Just has been headed to Corporatism. It goes from one extreme, no regulations, heading toward too much government and regulations. Not finding much balance, In all nations. Those who have the resources, $$$ control more. It seems that governments want to choose (through laws) what is good or not good for us. What is so crazy is they demonize alcohol in the past, drugs and now tabacco products the world over and try to claim they are PREVENTING use through the exhorborant taxes. Meanwhile they earn huge revenues from it (ie). the "dealers" preaching how bad it is for us. All the while they earn from it. I think people are tired of the differences in rules for us and them. This is really an important topic for all citizens of the world and we should pay attention and fight to keep our rights as human beings.!!!

[cigcars]

*Nobody seems to want to take a middle ground here. Commienizm has a nice sounding term: "From each according to his ability/to each according to his need." Well that works in a temporary emergency situation. Outside of that, as far as a permanent lifestyle - I'LL be the one to decide how much of something I NEED. And want. I don't get emotional about that political system like my fellow statesmen do. Remember, American corporations unfettered had children working around the clock w/no pay, literally, let alone their parents. It was Mr. Engels who is responsible for there being a minimum wage in place. And unions, which I believe in, and were roundly condemned as being "socialist" by these same corporations, are responsible for an 8hour workday, AND health benefits. No, I'm not a "commie" but I do believe there HAS to be some restraints on runaway greed levelled corporations who's only concern is the "bottom line" and not giving 2 bottle caps on who lives or dies in the process. Literally.

[El Presidente]

*Nobody seems to want to take a middle ground here. Commienizm has a nice sounding term: "From each according to his ability/to each according to his need." Well that works in a temporary emergency situation. Outside of that, as far as a permanent lifestyle - I'LL be the one to decide how much of something I NEED. And want. I don't get emotional about that political system like my fellow statesmen do. Remember, American corporations unfettered had children working around the clock w/no pay, literally, let alone their parents. It was Mr. Engels who is responsible for there being a minimum wage in place. And unions, which I believe in, and were roundly condemned as being "socialist" by these same corporations, are responsible for an 8hour workday, AND health benefits. No, I'm not a "commie" but I do believe there HAS to be some restraints on runaway greed levelled corporations who's only concern is the "bottom line" and not giving 2 bottle caps on who lives or dies in the process. Literally.

no doubt.

other side of the coin is the union mantra of "Nothing moves here without our permission" Be it wharves, building sites, transport. How many payments were/are made by business owners to out of control unions. In many cases legalized mafia.

The middle ground appears to be the edge of the coin.

[sw15825]

no doubt.

other side of the coin is the union mantra of "Nothing moves here without our permission" Be it wharves, building sites, transport. How many payments were/are made by business owners to out of control unions. In many cases legalized mafia.

The middle ground appears to be the edge of the coin.

Agreed. How do we get it to the middle? Fear seems to keep it out of balance imo.

[cigcars]

no doubt.

other side of the coin is the union mantra of "Nothing moves here without our permission" Be it wharves, building sites, transport. How many payments were/are made by business owners to out of control unions. In many cases legalized mafia.

The middle ground appears to be the edge of the coin.

Okay, good point. It seems there can be nothing but nothing mankind can engage in, no matter how intently noble, that doesn't get corrupted. Be it religion, politics, parenting, and yes, eating, drinking, indulging. If it doesn't appear to be too far off course, yes, Capitalism started out with best intentions. Then power, corruption, greed got into the mix. Communism grew out, I believe, as a contrast/contest to that corruption - then lo & behold - IT got unbearably oppressive, spying & restricting in what could be said and done. They ALL started out with best intentions. As long as man is Man, and limited & fallible - things - are - going- to- happen! The thing for reasonable, objective people to do is not get emotionally, tribal and take sides. Only moderate and realize there is good and bad in it all

[thechenman]

ANARCHY for me please...thank you!!!

To a degree...I think we are already there. At least that is what I see when I look at many of the political systems not just int he U.S., but around the world. Even in the ECB...

[SethLG]

You know, I don’t think capitalism has failed and gone the way of communism, but think of it as a hybrid, most things begin out one way and either gradually or suddenly there is a change or an addition and most of the times that happens in a reaction to a present situation whether it is an issue of labor, war, natural disaster, and so forth. I still believe capitalism moves on but in a different manner.

I think we have reached a point where states no longer let people just do as they wish or can but rather look at the people of a nation and hope for the better of them all, it has something to do with humanity and the development of people as a whole and that for the most part we are more caring of others. The idea of people around you has changed dramatically since 100 BC let alone 1900 AD. With technology and education and everything else improving, for the most part, living has changed as well, and we can now not just worry about how I am going to put food on the table at the end of the day, but more think once it is on the table and we have finished eating lets discuss, hopefully over a cigar, life and issues in the world.

I think saying we destroy the crux of capitalism is a bit strong, but regulations is the better word for it and we do so for the most part, for the better of all, not just one. It’s an idea of looking at the big picture and not just right in front of you, along with that decisions are made which are great for others and bad for some, and that is the toughest part of it.

I believe that both the government and pure capitalism are 2 things naturally clash but they can work together if as a whole people are willing to sit down discuss and be able to work things out, it doesn’t mean that it will be pretty but sacrifices would need to be made. The issue with trusting either one is tough; because you put faith in both and at the same time criticize both.

I do not believe it is too late for a balance of the two and I believe that there will always be some problems and issues but continuous work will also be made to smooth the road out.

I think in the next decade you will begin to see a fluctuation of government regulations and that of pure capitalism, I believe people as a whole will either put their faith behind one or the other and not both, and the trick will be to have the people convinced and actually believe it for themselves that they are both trying to help them, but that is life when we live in developed countries and not on secluded islands by ourselves.