Cohiba Gran Reserva Performance

[BobLobLaw]

Reading the show me your stick CGR review and accompanying comments I got to thinking. Specifically on El Prez's comment that in his current estimation the CRG fires on all cylinders about 33% of the time. At first glance this may seem absurdly low and not worth the price when 2/3 of the time they will just be "average" (yet still a low 90 rated stick it seems)

We all know every marca/vitola can be hit or miss at times. So my question to the experienced smokers is what percentage of regular production cigars do you find that are just on fire? (pun intended!) and by that I do not mean good or above average, but knock your socks off, make you sit down, top 10, nirvanaesq experiences like those with "On" CGR have described. Not sure if this can be answered across the board or by specific cigars like percentage of CoRo or Rass etc . . .

Another consideration is the level of quality control our regular production cigars go through. People may say 70% of my regular stock is rock my face off fantastic, but are we considering that anything bought from Czar is inspected and unsavory sticks returned? If you are starting with only the top 50% of reg production cigars and 70% of those are amazing that really is only 35% of the overall stock which is right in line with Prez's current estimate with CGR. We just never see the lower 50%. I am assuming that there are no reject CGR being sent back.

CGR are like any other cigar in that they are hand made and organic so its only natural for fluctuations. No matter what level or price point or quality of raw materials there will always be a best of the best. Think high school to college to pro sports. Although every player in the NFL has the talent and athleticism to do amazing things there are only a few superstars. And even then those guys have horrible games or down season from time to time. Why would we think the percentage of superstars from the CGR would be much different from the normal regular production stuff? The base floor and ceiling are both just higher and while the gap between the best and worst CGR should certainly be tighter (no tent poles) its reasonable to expect some sticks to outshine others.

In the end, it seems that an average CGR is still a pretty highly rated cigar and if El Prez is correct in and 1-2 years two thirds of them will be at that amazing point that seems like a very good percentage to me.

I have a few CGR, but have not tried any yet. Initial reviews spurred my decision to buy a couple singles as I felt I would regret it in 5 years if not, but price point kept the buy to a minimum and will be smoked when I have occasion to devote all my time to the cigar.

Thanks for listening, hope i was somewhat coherent.

[tigger]

If I pay Joe Montana prices and end up with Chad Pennington, I'm bound to get a little grumpy.

Which is why there are very few cigars I'll pay that kind of premium for.

[semery74]

I am not a major subscriber to ELs, Special Packaging, and Special Releases. I purchase for availability, variety, and aging. I'm a daily smoker and choose everything regular production from Mille Fluers to Esplendido depending on mood, time, and taste. Here is where I think my numbers lay on just regular production stock. I know this is completely subjective, but I very rarely experience a cigar that dissatisfying. Perhaps I'm just easy to please.

nirvana 1%

above 80%

average 18%

below 1%

[cigcars]

Reading the show me your stick CGR review and accompanying comments I got to thinking. Specifically on El Prez's comment that in his current estimation the CRG fires on all cylinders about 33% of the time. At first glance this may seem absurdly low and not worth the price when 2/3 of the time they will just be "average" (yet still a low 90 rated stick it seems)

We all know every marca/vitola can be hit or miss at times. So my question to the experienced smokers is what percentage of regular production cigars do you find that are just on fire? (pun intended!) and by that I do not mean good or above average, but knock your socks off, make you sit down, top 10, nirvanaesq experiences like those with "On" CGR have described. Not sure if this can be answered across the board or by specific cigars like percentage of CoRo or Rass etc . . .

Another consideration is the level of quality control our regular production cigars go through. People may say 70% of my regular stock is rock my face off fantastic, but are we considering that anything bought from Czar is inspected and unsavory sticks returned? If you are starting with only the top 50% of reg production cigars and 70% of those are amazing that really is only 35% of the overall stock which is right in line with Prez's current estimate with CGR. We just never see the lower 50%. I am assuming that there are no reject CGR being sent back.

CGR are like any other cigar in that they are hand made and organic so its only natural for fluctuations. No matter what level or price point or quality of raw materials there will always be a best of the best. Think high school to college to pro sports. Although every player in the NFL has the talent and athleticism to do amazing things there are only a few superstars. And even then those guys have horrible games or down season from time to time. Why would we think the percentage of superstars from the CGR would be much different from the normal regular production stuff? The base floor and ceiling are both just higher and while the gap between the best and worst CGR should certainly be tighter (no tent poles) its reasonable to expect some sticks to outshine others.

In the end, it seems that an average CGR is still a pretty highly rated cigar and if El Prez is correct in and 1-2 years two thirds of them will be at that amazing point that seems like a very good percentage to me.

I have a few CGR, but have not tried any yet. Initial reviews spurred my decision to buy a couple singles as I felt I would regret it in 5 years if not, but price point kept the buy to a minimum and will be smoked when I have occasion to devote all my time to the cigar.

Thanks for listening, hope i was somewhat coherent.

*I've managed to acquire a Cohiba Gran Reserva (authenticity verified), and while it was impressive in its quality and size...it was primarily "average." For those smokes that I can say were "knock you down, set you out, knock your socks off Great" are as follows: 1. Padron Family Reserve No. 45 - wow, and I mean WOW!!! 2. 1993 year's LaGloria Cubana made in Miami - spun my head just like a couple of shots of hard, cheap liquor! 3. Monte Cristo No. 2 (habana, of course -just wonderful in flavor and strength) 4. Camacho Coyolar's first batch that came out. What they have out now - just not happenin'. 5. Partagas Lusitania, habana - made my hard core brother-in-law so smashed he kept looking for wherever he laid it for the longest - only to finally discover he'd been holding it all along!!! We primarily love strong habana's but will give the time of day to nicaraguans & USA Floridians with some punch to them.

[mbrody]

Based upon my 1 a day smoking habits, I can come to this conclusion for my own collection and smoking preferences:

nirvana 1%

above 28%

average 70%

below 1%

[DrunkenMonkey]

*I've managed to acquire a Cohiba Gran Reserva (authenticity verified), and while it was impressive in its quality and size...it was primarily "average." For those smokes that I can say were "knock you down, set you out, knock your socks off Great" are as follows: 1. Padron Family Reserve No. 45 - wow, and I mean WOW!!! 2. 1993 year's LaGloria Cubana made in Miami - spun my head just like a couple of shots of hard, cheap liquor! 3. Monte Cristo No. 2 (habana, of course -just wonderful in flavor and strength) 4. Camacho Coyolar's first batch that came out. What they have out now - just not happenin'. 5. Partagas Lusitania, habana - made my hard core brother-in-law so smashed he kept looking for wherever he laid it for the longest - only to finally discover he'd been holding it all along!!! We primarily love strong habana's but will give the time of day to nicaraguans & USA Floridians with some punch to them.

Interesting. I'd not heard of the intoxicating lusitanias before. Was this one of those cigars that the kids empty out and replace with the fresh Tobacco from British Columbia?

[rock]

Based upon my 1 a day smoking habits, I can come to this conclusion for my own collection and smoking preferences:

nirvana 1%

above 28%

average 70%

below 1%

I look at it like this: if your in the nfl, your in the most elite league in the world. I smoke anywhere between 3-4 habanas a day. Due to my situation i.e. car accident left as a quad. I have some time on my hands. I would say that a bad CC is better than any other NC. CC are the NFL and anyone who can get them legally on a regular basis should be considered lucky. As for the quality in certain brands yes there are minor fluctuations, but I have never thrown away a CC. Maybe I have an immature palate, but the flavor is almost always there, but the draw can very. Just my opinion.

[prshah25]

Reading the show me your stick CGR review and accompanying comments I got to thinking. Specifically on El Prez's comment that in his current estimation the CRG fires on all cylinders about 33% of the time. At first glance this may seem absurdly low and not worth the price when 2/3 of the time they will just be "average" (yet still a low 90 rated stick it seems)

We all know every marca/vitola can be hit or miss at times. So my question to the experienced smokers is what percentage of regular production cigars do you find that are just on fire? (pun intended!) and by that I do not mean good or above average, but knock your socks off, make you sit down, top 10, nirvanaesq experiences like those with "On" CGR have described. Not sure if this can be answered across the board or by specific cigars like percentage of CoRo or Rass etc . . .

Another consideration is the level of quality control our regular production cigars go through. People may say 70% of my regular stock is rock my face off fantastic, but are we considering that anything bought from Czar is inspected and unsavory sticks returned? If you are starting with only the top 50% of reg production cigars and 70% of those are amazing that really is only 35% of the overall stock which is right in line with Prez's current estimate with CGR. We just never see the lower 50%. I am assuming that there are no reject CGR being sent back.

CGR are like any other cigar in that they are hand made and organic so its only natural for fluctuations. No matter what level or price point or quality of raw materials there will always be a best of the best. Think high school to college to pro sports. Although every player in the NFL has the talent and athleticism to do amazing things there are only a few superstars. And even then those guys have horrible games or down season from time to time. Why would we think the percentage of superstars from the CGR would be much different from the normal regular production stuff? The base floor and ceiling are both just higher and while the gap between the best and worst CGR should certainly be tighter (no tent poles) its reasonable to expect some sticks to outshine others.

In the end, it seems that an average CGR is still a pretty highly rated cigar and if El Prez is correct in and 1-2 years two thirds of them will be at that amazing point that seems like a very good percentage to me.

I have a few CGR, but have not tried any yet. Initial reviews spurred my decision to buy a couple singles as I felt I would regret it in 5 years if not, but price point kept the buy to a minimum and will be smoked when I have occasion to devote all my time to the cigar.

Thanks for listening, hope i was somewhat coherent.

I just find the CGR not worth the price point..If they were like 50% cheaper I would rate it highly as a Padron 45th anniversary...But when you pay $100 for a stick that does not justify its price point its a major dissapointment...I wonder how the new Behikes are going to be...

Thanks

[thechenman]

My expectations for a cigar are naturally a derivative of how much I pay for them. I think that is a function for pretty much everyone. Are you going to regularly pay $110 for a cigar if it is only going to deliver 33% of the time? I wouldn't. It's one thing to experiment, but something entirely different if you keep going back. Sure cigars are hit and miss, but I only buy boxes of cigars that hit way more than they miss. For $15 or even $20 dollars a cigar, am I happy to get a 90-rated smoke? Sure I am. For $110 for a cigar, would I be just as satisfied to get a 90-rated smoke? Hell no! For that price it had better be in the upper-90s to 100. Its all a function of cost. Would I pay $150 for a bottle of Dom Perignon? Sure, I would becasue it consistently delivers at a $150 price point for me. Would I pay $150 for a bottle of Korbel Brut? Hell no! Why? Becasue Korbel delivers consistently at a $15 dollar level, not a $150 level. I don't expect to get the same level of enjoyment out of a bottle of Korbel vs. Dom, but I am okay with that if I paid $15 instead of $150.

[BobLobLaw]

Oh I am not disagreeing that for the price I want Nirvana and would be upset otherwise.

Two people have posted that 1% of their cigars are Nirvana right? So that means that every 100 cigars produces one such experience. The 33% delivery rate of the CGR is for that Nirvana experience (if I am understanding correct). So three CGR deliver the same number of amazing cigar experiences as 100 reg production ones. Based on that math the price point is not bad if what you are seeking is a singular Nirvana experience. I am ignoring the obvious that going regular production you get to smoke 97 more sticks.

Thing with value is no matter what you can always find better value whether in wine, champagne, or cigars. There are always $10 products that rate as highly as $100 ones. Guess my point was that a one in three chance to have a top 1% cigar experience does not seem like HSA did a poor job at all. And if, in fact, those odds go up to two out of three in a couple years that is actually pretty remarkable IMO.

[BobLobLaw]

I try (not always successfully) to avoid price in any rating. It applies to value and whether it is worth it to me to smoke/buy again.

[nivanov]

I think that sometimes cigars are "hyped" and the tasters who give out the ratings smoke cigars that are HQ high quality pre-selected which makes the whole tasting/review process biased. Where do the experts on CA get their cigars?

They can't go to the store and buy them, right? So where do they get them?

My experience with the CGR was that it did not match up to a regular production Siglo VI.

[Colt45]

its reasonable to expect some sticks to outshine others.

Many NC producers do a tremendous job of maintaining consistency of both flavor and construction - cigar to cigar, box to box. Personally, I

think it reasonable to expect the same from the Cubans - especially if the cigar is touted as the best of the best. Maybe even more to the point,

I think it's reasonable to expect consistency across the board - gran reservas or not.

Thing with value is no matter what you can always find better value whether in wine, champagne, or cigars. There are always $10 products that rate as highly as $100 ones. Guess my point was that a one in three chance to have a top 1% cigar experience does not seem like HSA did a poor job at all. And if, in fact, those odds go up to two out of three in a couple years that is actually pretty remarkable IMO.

If I bought a case of wine @ $100 per bottle, and four bottles were great and the rest not, I wouldn't be sending the producer a thank you note.

[Guest rob]

The world of "hi end" hobbies is filled with examples of exponentially small increases in performance to massive increase in price.

When I got addicted to hi end audio my wallet learnt it's lesson the hard way.

And buying a "near mint" condition copy of Amazing Spiderman#1 cost me half what a mint copy would have...

Enthusiasts always find a way to

justify mind bending prices... It's all relative. One mans rip off is another mans bargain.

[cigcars]

Interesting. I'd not heard of the intoxicating lusitanias before. Was this one of those cigars that the kids empty out and replace with the fresh Tobacco from British Columbia?

*Heavens no...(and almost missed that one).

[dicko]

I try (not always successfully) to avoid price in any rating. It applies to value and whether it is worth it to me to smoke/buy again.

I try to stick to this approach too.

[Yoruba Hacker]

"Delivers nirvana"

That was the phrase, right?

I think you guys get a lot more cigars that deliver nirvana than I do. Or I don't understand the meaning in the same way.

Because to me, that's saying you're having a Top Ten of All Time kind of experience. By definition that can't happen a whole lot.

If I could find a cigar that could deliver that one out of every three times I smoked one, I'd buy as much as I could. In CGR math,

that would translate to one box representing half of the best cigars you ever had, on average.

Works for me.

And if they get better, and I agree with Prez that they will, it's a bargain at even these high prices.

Right now, I'm batting .500

[El Presidente]

Many NC producers do a tremendous job of maintaining consistency of both flavor and construction - cigar to cigar, box to box. Personally, I

think it reasonable to expect the same from the Cubans - especially if the cigar is touted as the best of the best. Maybe even more to the point,

I think it's reasonable to expect consistency across the board - gran reservas or not.

It is tough to expect a communist system to deliver consistent production excellence.

I must say I do get into a lot of correspondence on this subject of CGR and have come to the conclusion that guys who bought boxes are far happier than those who purchased singles. Not all is possibly well in the state of Denmark.

[Stalebread]

. . . have come to the conclusion that guys who bought boxes are far happier than those who purchased singles. . . .

A very interesting conclusion to come to.

Could you say more about this? What does it mean? Why are they happier? Is it that they have an entire box and not just a single or two? Or is it that the cigars from a full box somehow smoke better than a single out of the singles drawer?

Is it just a coincidence? Were certain cigars designated by vendors to be the "singles" cigars?

Is there any implication here regarding other single vs. box cigars and their purchase? The Bihike comes to mind.

[El Presidente]

A very interesting conclusion to come to.

Could you say more about this? What does it mean? Why are they happier? Is it that they have an entire box and not just a single or two? Or is it that the cigars from a full box somehow smoke better than a single out of the singles drawer?

Is it just a coincidence? Were certain cigars designated by vendors to be the "singles" cigars?

Is there any implication here regarding other single vs. box cigars and their purchase? The Bihike comes to mind.

Simply an observation based on plenty of one on one conversation/discussion and personal experience.

I suspect there are plenty of singles which are not indeed CGR. I know they are out there because I have been gifted three over the past 6 months. Two were straight COhiba Siglo VI with a GR band. One was not even that.

This has been the easiest cigar in history to fake as a single. It has been taken full advantage of.

[El Presidente]

Simply an observation based on plenty of one on one conversation/discussion and personal experience.

I suspect there are plenty of singles which are not indeed CGR. I know they are out there because I have been gifted three over the past 6 months. Two were straight COhiba Siglo VI with a GR band. One was not even that.

This has been the easiest cigar in history to fake as a single. It has been taken full advantage of.

[El Presidente]

I should point out that there would be plenty (or at least some) of dealers selling authentic singles. This is one of those cigars unfortunately that you can purchase by the thousands in Havana any given day on any given street corner in Vedado or Havana Vieja.

As for the quallity difference of singles against box, unless there is a conscious effort of the dealer to break great boxes he will always break his worst.

[Ellery]

Ive only been smoking habanos for a brief period, and thus have never had the pleasure of experiencing nirvana...that is while smoking a cigar at least

Nirvana-0%

Above-30%

Average-65%

Shitty-5%

In regards to CGR, too steep for my budget. Unless it came along with a back massage and a release...lol

[Colt45]

It is tough to expect a communist system to deliver consistent production excellence.

The underlying theme in all of these type of discussions.

[Stalebread]

So if I understand what you're saying, Rob, people who did not have a good experience smoking a CGR, IF it was a single, could be because the cigar was a fake or, at the least, maybe, from the "worst" box.

Does the fake issue hold true for CGR purchases from LCDH?