Answer to Question:

[El Presidente]

This has perplexed many of us. The introduction of draw machines six years ago was to address the over and underfilling of cigars. While the incidence overfilling has greatly been reduced, the incidence of underfilling has not.

Cigars when draw tested must meet a benchmark of draw machine resistance of between 40-80. -40 and they are too tight. +80 and they are too loose. I took a series of underfilled cigars and ran them through draw machines. All came in at over 80.

So how were they missed given all cigars are supposedly tested?

1. Human error. Unlikely given I am seeing batches of cigars with the same problem.

2. All cigars are not being tested. You can assume that is a given.

The best insight I was given was from a factory insider. This is his take on it and I have no proof outside of his word which I have no reason to distrust. It makes sense.

There is a racket going on in some factories where rollers are giving a small "gratuity" to inspectors to "waive" the testing process on some or all of the rollers cigars. Crap is getting through.

HSA is aware of the problem of underfilled cigars and is formulating a plan to circumvent the issue. Given it is factory issue it is not a small feat to fix.

The real underlying problem is the wage system and the fact that the carrot and stick approach greatly favours the stick. Some rollers (and it would appear to be many) have found a nice easy way to circumvent the process (avoid the stick).

This is a very Cuban answer to the problem.

[Buch0]

That is indeed an interesting take on it and one that many wouldn't of expected, well me anyway.. First thing that comes to mind though is the fact that the rollers can afford to sacrifice some of their pay to the inspectors? I always thought their wage was that minimal that such a deduction from their finances wouldn't be feasible, no matter the amount. I never would have guessed that some had money to play with in such a way.

Cheers for that Rob, it gives us all something to think about that's for sure.

[Jimmy2]

Are their more cigars than others that have the under filled problems meaning one brand from another.

[El Presidente]

That is indeed an interesting take on it and one that many wouldn't of expected, well me anyway.. First thing that comes to mind though is the fact that the rollers can afford to sacrifice some of their pay to the inspectors? I always thought their wage was that minimal that such a deduction from their finances wouldn't be feasible, no matter the amount. I never would have guessed that some had money to play with in such a way.

Cheers for that Rob, it gives us all something to think about that's for sure.

Remember the maxim...."Fidel pretends to pay us and we pretend to work"

No one works alone in Cuba. Teams (be it in a hotel, a restaurant or a factory) work together to do what is necessary to survive.

There are real benefits to working in a factory. Access to tobacco, bands etc. One man alone can do little. Working as a team (who are all in the same situation) and there can be some decent rewards.

A dollar here or there may not do much. However 20 rollers or more pooling resources and it adds up.

Is everyone in on it? I doubt it. Are we talking about a significant number? I am pretty sure we are.

That is the system they are forced to work under. They cannot survive on $20 /CUC a month.

[El Presidente]

Are their more cigars than others that have the under filled problems meaning one brand from another.

Thinner gauge cigars are currently overrepresented in the underfilling stakes. Larger factories more represented than smaller ones.

However plenty of DC's, Churchills, Robusto's are also afflicted.

[MIKA27]

Remember the maxim...."Fidel pretends to pay us and we pretend to work"

No one works alone in Cuba. Teams (be it in a hotel, a restaurant or a factory) work together to do what is necessary to survive.

There are real benefits to working in a factory. Access to tobacco, bands etc. One man alone can do little. Working as a team (who are all in the same situation) and there can be some decent rewards.

A dollar here or there may not do much. However 20 rollers or more pooling resources and it adds up.

Is everyone in on it? I doubt it. Are we talking about a significant number? I am pretty sure we are.

That is the system they are forced to work under. They cannot survive on $20 /CUC a month.

By this you mean as a team, who have access to bands, tobacco etc, these members earning $20/CUC a month could head back home, roll their own cigars and sell them for a profit? (Hence the 'Decent rewards')

Buch0 - You took my question!

[El Presidente]

By this you mean as a team, who have access to bands, tobacco etc, these members earning $20/CUC a month could head back home, roll their own cigars and sell them for a profit? (Hence the 'Decent rewards')

Buch0 - You took my question!

I would never dare to say that has ever happened

[Tampa1257]

Exactly, the team with the underfilled cigars have excess tobacco at the end of the day, the team then using their skills produce a product that can be marketed fairly easily and provide the team with the extra CUC's needed to survive any given month.

Interesting........

[Jimmy2]

I have seen this more than any cigar in the last 2 years that has been underfilled is the PSD4...

[MIKA27]

Exactly, the team with the underfilled cigars have excess tobacco at the end of the day, the team then using their skills produce a product that can be marketed fairly easily and provide the team with the extra CUC's needed to survive any given month.

Interesting........

It's bound to happen as there is 'opportunity' there to do it.

[SnakeHips]

Exactly, the team with the underfilled cigars have excess tobacco at the end of the day, the team then using their skills produce a product that can be marketed fairly easily and provide the team with the extra CUC's needed to survive any given month.

Interesting........

Exactly. I'd always wondered how underfilling happens when a cigar's blend involves a set number of specific leaves.

I imagine what Rob means by "teams" in this context is exactly what you said: a certain group of rollers leave out one of the leaves of volado every few cigars, sneak out the tobacco, roll counterfeits at home; a certain bander (or more) hides away some bands and takes them to the counterfeiters; the inspector passes the group's lightened cigars; someone else hides away warranty seals and Habanos seals; one of them sells a single box to a tourist for much more than the monthly wage, and it's distributed among the group so each can afford milk or something basic.

If that explanation didn't make as much sense as it does, I would have said that underfilled cigars are a result of neglect by Habanos - an underfilled cigar is still smokable, so it costs them less to let them onto the market as opposed to letting them be "recycled" into less-profitable brands. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't also a factor.

[SethG]

This has perplexed many of us. The introduction of draw machines six years ago was to address the over and underfilling of cigars. While the incidence overfilling has greatly been reduced, the incidence of underfilling has not.

Cigars when draw tested must meet a benchmark of draw machine resistance of between 40-80. -40 and they are too tight. +80 and they are too loose. I took a series of underfilled cigars and ran them through draw machines. All came in at over 80.

So how were they missed given all cigars are supposedly tested?

1. Human error. Unlikely given I am seeing batches of cigars with the same problem.

2. All cigars are not being tested. You can assume that is a given.

The best insight I was given was from a factory insider. This is his take on it and I have no proof outside of his word which I have no reason to distrust. It makes sense.

There is a racket going on in some factories where rollers are giving a small "gratuity" to inspectors to "waive" the testing process on some or all of the rollers cigars. Crap is getting through.

HSA is aware of the problem of underfilled cigars and is formulating a plan to circumvent the issue. Given it is factory issue it is not a small feat to fix.

The real underlying problem is the wage system and the fact that the carrot and stick approach greatly favours the stick. Some rollers (and it would appear to be many) have found a nice easy way to circumvent the process (avoid the stick).

This is a very Cuban answer to the problem.

So I have something to say about this. It's understandable but when I'm smoking romeo romeo's (from the ancient humidor) and I'm getting under and overs so bad the cigar is plugged.... How is it that someone entrusted to roll a double figurado going in a 2-4K humidor is slipping gratuities in?

Can someone hint Habanos that they need to avoid this problem with the high end stuff, it's one thing to blow off a box of Cuaba Salamones, another thing on a 3K+ humidor alltogether....

[El Presidente]

So I have something to say about this. It's understandable but when I'm smoking romeo romeo's (from the ancient humidor) and I'm getting under and overs so bad the cigar is plugged.... How is it that someone entrusted to roll a double figurado going in a 2-4K humidor is slipping gratuities in?

Can someone hint Habanos that they need to avoid this problem with the high end stuff, it's one thing to blow off a box of Cuaba Salamones, another thing on a 3K+ humidor alltogether....

That is just incompetence Seth. There are no excuses.

[SethG]

That is just incompetence Seth. There are no excuses.

Fair enough! That's why I love you guys! No bullshit!

[Guest rob]

As an example - I bought 5 boxes of P 898V in the last year... and underfilled cigars were my biggest complaint.

Some were so underfilled that looking at the foot of the cigar it looked like it was 20% less packed than it should have been... and when squeezed between my fingers it compressed to a state that should have not been possible if correctly filled.

They consequently turned out to be wind tunnels.

Two boxes in particular contained 50% cigars that were significanty underfilled.

[Stalebread]

Are cigars also weighed as part of quality control?

If so, by the same inspector?

Wouldn't intentionally underfilled cigars weigh noticeably less?

[kjellfrick]

Thank you Rob for your effort to find out about this and for the candid explanation. It sounds like a tough situation for HSA to rectify. I guess a salary you could live on would be a good start...but I guess they have no influence on how the wages are set?

[stargazer14]

Maybe i need to bump up to 5 or 6 cigars a day, but i have had very little problem with overfill or underfill,

maybe 1 stick per every 2 boxes - maybe.

EXCEPT (drumroll for Jimmy...) the PSD4, those have been too loose too often.

And i'm happy, as my old habit of smoking NC's produced a 30 to 40% rate of bad quality.

I aint saying it aint happnin' tho.

[FireDigger]

Are their more cigars than others that have the under filled problems meaning one brand from another.

From personal experience, the Montecristo Sublime... See review:

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/inde...showtopic=99486

[bassman]

This is most interesting, even though I have not really noticed underfilling in my recent production cigars. I very much noticed it with the 04 production, which I believe is when the draw machines came on line. Shouldn't be able to smoke a DC in 45 minutes, but 04 VR DAs, no problem. 04 Monte Edmundos, soft as a wet sponge.

[El Presidente]

This is most interesting, even though I have not really noticed underfilling in my recent production cigars. I very much noticed it with the 04 production, which I believe is when the draw machines came on line. Shouldn't be able to smoke a DC in 45 minutes, but 04 VR DAs, no problem. 04 Monte Edmundos, soft as a wet sponge.

We really try hard to cull the worst of the underfilled cigars. It really is an unfair burden on the team to determine which cigars are too loose compared to loose compared to just right. Then again we have many members who beg for an easy draw and love what others call underfilled.

I know what underfilled is. I hate underfilled. My team also works hard to spot the problem. Then there is the problem of

"spotting". Perfectly rolled cigar except for a particular "soft section". Where has that tobacco gone?

Underfilling takes much longer to check for than overfilling. I really do hope it is fixed over the next 6 months but that still leaves plenty of production out there. Still, we check every box and do our best to shield members from the issue.

[Mel]

I have had more problems with the overfilled than under. I had some 00 R&J Exh. #4 that were quite loose but produced gobs of good smoke with light draws. I actually liked them.

[Onsto]

I know what underfilled is. I hate underfilled. My team also works hard to spot the problem. Then there is the problem of

"spotting". Perfectly rolled cigar except for a particular "soft section". Where has that tobacco gone?

Funny that you mention this - I experienced it for the first time in a really bad way on Sunday. Monte 2 that was spot on for the first third, suddenly went all to crap- very empty and burned really hot up the middle to the point that I cut it and had a relight. The offending portion removed - it was back to great again.

I have a feeling that most of the issues I have with 'problem' cigars are as a result of my 'less than perfect environments' for them (2 desktops and a cooler, with the cooler being by far the best) so I tend to be quite forgiving of the roller and blame my own influence. In this instance though it was obvious that the problem lay in the factory, rather than as a result of operator error...

[SethG]

Why don't they way the cigars Rob? In their bundled intermediary state? When I weigh my sticks (on occasion) I get a spread of 10 grams on under/over fills. When a box is normal I see a spread of 1-4 grams. It's a very quick test.

Frankly this isn't just a QC issue, why would Habanos want to get screwed out of good tobacco by employee's who waste by overfilling?

Maybe we can take up a precision scale fund and donate some....

[samb]

...This is a very Cuban answer to the problem.

Yes it is, and to me, its really sad to see how its come down to this. I guess Communism really doesnt work, lol. I sincerely do hope HSA puts a stop to it in the coming months. However, I dont really see it happening. If anything, the problem may get worse, sense the factory workers have gone so long undected, they will by now have built up enough confidence to make ending the problem really difficult. With a group of people from all levels in within the heirarchy of the factory on the take, who knows how this will play out.