Morientes50 Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 I love bullfights and often have to defend myself when I mention it. Here in the states a common reply is that "its not a fair sport" because the bull doesn't have a chance. But what most Yanks don't understand is that bullfighting should not be seen as a sport but more like an artform. The bull (sometimes seen as a man in love) is led around the ring by the matador (who symbolizes a woman--notice the pony tail etc.). In the end, the woman kills the man. The art is in the appreciation of how well, quickly it is done. The joy is in the technique and not in the suffering of the bull (the crowd will dissaprove of any hamfisted matador that can't kill the bull quickly)
Colt45 Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 But what most Yanks don't understand is that bullfighting should not be seen as a sport but more like an artform. man. The art is in the appreciation of how well, quickly it is done. The joy is in the technique and not in the suffering of the bull I'd find that a little more believable if the bull didn't enter the ring already stabbed in the neck, wasn't darted again afterward, and wasn't spiked by men on horses again after that. One man, one bull - both enter the ring unscathed - two may enter, one may leave. Go Toro!
Morientes50 Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 I'd find that a little more believable if the bull didn't enter the ring already stabbed in the neck, wasn't darted again afterward, and wasn'tspiked by men on horses again after that. One man, one bull - both enter the ring unscathed - two may enter, one may leave. Go Toro! That's fine. Your free to see it that way. I'm just giving you the low down on how it is seen in Spain. The Spanish don't take it as a sport but more like an artform (of course, some Spaniards don't like it either). If the bull kills the man, then something has gone wrong (from a Spanish perspective). And from Colt's perspective something has gone right BTW, the stabbing behind the neck proves my point that it is not a bloodsport. The bull is supposed to lose and weakening the bulls neck ensures that the bull has much less of a chance to hurt the matador.
Colt45 Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 The bull is supposed to lose and weakening the bulls neck ensures that the bull has much less of a chance to hurt the matador. Exactly. I guess I'll always be ignorant in the ways of ritualistic animal sacrifice.
Ken Gargett Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 Exactly. I guess I'll always be ignorant in the ways of ritualistic animal sacrifice. colt, welcome to the dark side. bizarre, isn't it. i have no problem with bullfighting yet think anyone who goes out and shoots an unsuspecting animal from distance would be better off in jail, sharing a cell with very large unclean people who want to be their closest of friends. for me, here the animal has been specifically bred for the purpose, is not wild, has had 4 to 5 years of relative luxury. there is a story in the cordobes book about how some starving villagers killed a bull for food - the owner was so outraged that the authorities came and shot something like 50 villagers from memory. been plenty of times the bulls have been treated far better than humans. these days, you can also buy the butchered animal next day in the markets - first bits to go are the bull's boy junk. couple of points re the earlier post - my understanding is very much along the lines that the quick kill is vital and any matador who fails, or at least keeps failing, is unlikely to remain a matador for long. also, bullfighting is a team event with each person to play their role. i was not aware that the bull originally entered the ring already having been stabbed in the neck. i thought that didn't take place until the bull was in the ring and first done by the picadors from the horses. i also don't follow the later darting comment? and while on a roll with wikpedia - Cultural aspects of bullfightingMany supporters of bullfighting regard it as a deeply ingrained, integral part of their national cultures. The aesthetic of bullfighting is based on the interaction of the man and the bull. Rather than a competitive sport, the bullfight is more of a ritual which is judged by aficionados (bullfighting fans) based on artistic impression and command. Ernest Hemingway said of it in his 1932 non-fiction book Death in the Afternoon: "Bullfighting is the only art in which the artist is in danger of death and in which the degree of brilliance in the performance is left to the fighter's honour." Bullfighting is seen as a symbol of Spanish culture. The bullfight is above all about the demonstration of style, technique and courage by its participants. While there is usually no doubt about the outcome, the bull is not viewed as a sacrificial victim — it is instead seen by the audience as a worthy adversary, deserving of respect in its own right. Bulls learn fast and their capacity to do so should never be underestimated. Indeed, a bullfight may be viewed as a race against time for the matador, who must display his bullfighting skills before the animal learns what is going on and begins to thrust its horns at something other than the cape. A hapless matador may find himself being pelted with seat cushions as he makes his exit. The audience looks for the matador to display an appropriate level of style and courage and for the bull to display aggression and determination. For the matador, this means performing skillfully in front of the bull, often turning his back on it to demonstrate his mastery over the animal. The skill with which he delivers the fatal blow is another major point to look for. A skillful matador will achieve it in one stroke. Two is barely acceptable, while more than two is usually regarded as a bad job. The moment when the matador kills the bull is the most dangerous point of the entire fight, as it requires him to reach between the horns, head on, to deliver the blow. Matadors are at the greatest risk of suffering a goring at this point. Gorings are not uncommon and the results can be fatal. Many bullfighters have met their deaths on the horns of a bull, including one of the most celebrated of all time, Manolete, who was killed by a bull named Islero, raised by Miura, and Paquirri, who was killed by a bull named Avispado. In Spanish-speaking countries, when the bull charges through the cape, the crowd cheers saying Olé. If the matador has done exceptionally well, he will be given a standing ovation by the crowd, throwing hats and roses into the arena to show their appreciation. The successful matador will also receive one or two severed ears, and even the tail of the bull, depending on the quality of his performance. If the bull’s performance was also exceptional, the public may petition the president for a vuelta. This is when the crowd applauds as the dead bull is dragged once around the ring. Some separatists despise bullfighting because of its association with the Spanish nation and its blessing by the Franco regime as the fiesta nacional. Despite the long history and popularity of bullfighting in Barcelona Catalan nationalism played an important role in Barcelona's recent symbolic vote against bullfighting.[17] (althoug it was a simbolic and politic decision since the Monumental de Barcelona is full of spectators when a corrida is going on) However, even Jon Idigoras, a former Basque Batasuna leader, was a novillero before becoming a politician. Another current of criticism comes from aficionados themselves, who may despise modern developments such as the defiant style ("antics" for some) of El Cordobés or the lifestyle of Jesulín de Ubrique, a common subject of Spanish gossip magazines. His "female audience"-only corridas were despised by veterans, many of whom reminisce about times past, comparing modern bullfighters with early figures. Fin-de-siècle Spanish regeneracionista intellectuals protested against what they called the policy of pan y toros ("bread and bulls"), an analogue of Roman panem et circenses promoted by politicians to keep the populace content in its oppression.
Colt45 Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 colt, welcome to the dark side. bizarre, isn't it. i was not aware that the bull originally entered the ring already having been stabbed in the neck. i thought that didn't take place until the bull was in the ring and first done by the picadors from the horses. i also don't follow the later darting comment? KG, I saw bullfights in Mexico, so I don't know how it translates to Spain or elsewhere in the world. Please forgive my lack of knowledge of the proper terminology - I'll try to explain as best as possible. Each bull entered the ring already stuck in the neck and bleeding. A bit later, a number of men enter the ring and proceed to stick a number of festooned "darts" in the bull's already bleeding neck. A bit later the bulls were speared by two picadors on horseback. It is then that the main man, prancing like a peacock, dressed in tights and acting like he's already actually done something, comes in for he final act. The bull, already on his way out, gets stabbed with a sword and unceremoniously dragged out of the ring by a couple of horses. From my perspective as an outsider looking in, without roots in the history, it basically comes off as a farce, a sad comedy.
Ken Gargett Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 KG, I saw bullfights in Mexico, so I don't know how it translates to Spain or elsewhere in the world. Please forgive my lack of knowledge of the properterminology - I'll try to explain as best as possible. Each bull entered the ring already stuck in the neck and bleeding. A bit later, a number of men enter the ring and proceed to stick a number of festooned "darts" in the bull's already bleeding neck. A bit later the bulls were speared by two picadors on horseback. It is then that the main man, prancing like a peacock, dressed in tights and acting like he's already actually done something, comes in for he final act. The bull, already on his way out, gets stabbed with a sword and unceremoniously dragged out of the ring by a couple of horses. From my perspective as an outsider looking in, without roots in the history, it basically comes off as a farce, a sad comedy. i would be very keen to know from those more familiar with spanish bullfighting, which in my understanding is the home of bullfighting, whether the bull enters already stabbed in the neck. i have not heard this before, but doesn't mean it not true. colt, suspect my understanding of the entire thing no more advanced than yours. much fanfare. lots of blokes who've borrowed clothes from smithy's closet, much prancing about, bull comes racing in, matador and his entourage ponce about and there is much sizing up between bull and ponce, all very spectacular. not sure if they stick anything into the bull at this stage. can someone advise? then the picadors on the horses. who do stick swords into the bulls but it is not just stab away like a some fenzied serial killer on a last hurrah. rather the idea is to weaken the neck muscles which will, with further work from the matador, cause the bull to lower his head enough for the matador, who looks like a firecracker going off in an opp shop, to deliver the coup de G. the idea being it should be after he has exhausted the bull, its head will be held a little lower, though they are not given a lot of time to do this - the ones i have seen have three matadors each fighting two bulls so schedule a little tight. the matador then delivers the final thrust. if done well, the bull dies instantly. if not, the matador has to do it again (or in one i saw, he was so bad that he had to be replaced - apparently humiliating). any matador that needs a second go does not enjoy the benediction of the crowd. then the judge decides if the matador gets none, one or both ears. the latter being very rare and highly prized. the ones i have seen, the judges are extremely tough.
neal875 Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 OzI assume you are a vegetarian Let me be a Bull reared for the run or ring (3-5 years of pampering) than a cow for the slaughterhouse. I don't need to be a vegetarian to be against the cruelty of bullfighting. There is no quid pro quo here at all. Food and sport killing does not present us with a moral equivalency. I also don't have to be a vegetarian to think Michael Vick should do 2-5 for his idea of using animals for his particular form of sport. He also claimed that it was part of his culture and heritage and that he was raised watching it since he was a kid. Nobody bought that one either. Bulls, dogs, chickens--you don't have the 'right' to use animals to get your sporting needs met.
CigarmanTim Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 Ok...got it..everybodies got their own views...more importantly, what cigar was Ryan smoking?
Ryan Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 Ok...got it..everybodies got their own views...more importantly, what cigar was Ryan smoking? That was a Monte 2 that I got somewhere locally that day.
Ryan Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 i would be very keen to know from those more familiar with spanish bullfighting, which in my understanding is the home of bullfighting, whether the bull enters already stabbed in the neck. i have not heard this before, but doesn't mean it not true. Whie I can't speak for anywhere outside of Spain (modern bullfighting did originate there, a lot of the ritual specifically in Ronda, a fantastic place if you ever get to go there), no bull I've seen coming into the ring has been stabbed in the neck. They're animals, they bleed and there is no blood at this stage. They do have a rosette attached to their neck, I'm not sure what significance that carries, possibly breeding or farm of origin. I would be very surprised if that was more than skin deep though. not sure if they stick anything into the bull at this stage. can someone advise? Not at this stage that I've seen. After the picadores do their thing, the banderilleros do put barbed sticks into the neck and shoulder of the bull. the matador then delivers the final thrust. if done well, the bull dies instantly. if not, the matador has to do it again (or in one i saw, he was so bad that he had to be replaced - apparently humiliating). any matador that needs a second go does not enjoy the benediction of the crowd. then the judge decides if the matador gets none, one or both ears. the latter being very rare and highly prized. the ones i have seen, the judges are extremely tough. While I'm sure it can happen, I've never seen a bull die instantly. Even when the sword goes in perfectly, up to the hilt, the bull does not generally go down right away. The matador's assistants come out with capes and guide the bull from side to side or in a tight circle, this is to put the blade to more work on the major organs. When the bull goes down another chap then comes out with a small dagger, stabs the bull at the back of the head (at the top of the neck) and wiggles the blade, this cuts the spinal cord and there is no more pain for the animal. I think a difference, regarding treatment of the animals, between bullfighting and other activities such as dog or cock fighting is that the crowd is not interested in excess cruelty to the animal. As ken says, a matador who can't get the job done cleanly or quickly will be booed loudly and sometimes replaced. Some of the biggest applause is for the quickest kill. One bull I saw came out of the pen in such a rush and chased one of the participants so quickly that it broke a horn off the wooden barricade. If you've ever seen a cow or a bull lose a horn, it's an obviously painful thing. The matador was going to carry on with the bull as normal but the crowd raised enough noise (because the animal was going through unnecessary pain) that he was forced to kill the bull right away. A much more dangerous thing, as the bull is much fitter at this stage and part of the reason the picadores and bandillerilleros do their thing is so the matador can gauge the bull, see which side it favours etc. (he did kill the bull very quickly and got the biggest applause of the night for it). It was interesting that the crowd got to have a say and they decided to put the matador through more risk to himself in order to end unnecessary suffering of the animal. Having said all that, the option of letting the bull go back out of the ring wasn't raised.. Here are some pictures, I've put them in photobucket so you can choose to look at them or not. Picador Charge 1 Charge 2 Banderillero 1 Banderillero 2 When the bull is dead, a team of mules drags it out. At the events I was at, the bulls were then somewhat unceremoniously forklifted into a waiting butcher's van. Mules Forklift The bullfighter doesn't always get the upper hand. This guy was quite cocky, slapping the bull to get more action out of it. The bull wasn't having any of it, it suddenly sprang into life at the right moment and caught him. He had to be carried out to an ambulance and looked badly hurt, I read in the paper the next day that he was basically alright. If any bulls are spared in the ring any more, of any I've seen that one deserved it. They had a very hard time getting the better of him. Cocky Oops 1 Oops 2
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