Che Guevara

[GoSteelers]

I don't know a whole lot about this man but what I've learned from several Cuban American friends is that he is pretty much hated by them and they cringe at the sight of his image on shirts and such.

One friend said that he was the same to Cuba as Josef Mengele was to Nazi Germany.

Ive asked a couple younger guys I've seen wearing Che shirts what they knew of him and they really had no idea but that he was a Revolucionary and the shirt was cool?????

Actually saw his image on a sticker on the back window of a Chevy truck yesterday which made me remember seeing member avatars here.

I don't know if members in Cuba can post their opinion here or not but would like to hear some if posible.

[sounddust]

I only know of Che from the 4 or 5 books I have read about him, but I just find it odd that he would be compared to an animal who once sewed babies together while alive to stimulate Siamese twins

[bolivr]

Che is still very much revered in Cuba, by old lefties and young folks who don't know who he is but recognise a trendy image when they see one.

Your Cuban American friends are likely at the other end of the political scale from the Castro brothers.

[cigarros]

Personally me far from politics. I would like to present a fragment from the book of the historian Alexander Tarasov "44 years of war of CIA against Che Guevara". It's my translate. Unprofessional. Che is a revolutionary and an icon of the left movement. Trade brand. Parfume and t-shirts. Whether how much we know why he became revolutionary? All began with other events.

In August-October, 1967 in the southeast of Bolivia, in a valley of river Njankauasu, the governmental armies under the direction of North American advisers – experts of CIA in antiguerrilla operations – had been crushed tiny group gerileros led by legendary Cuban revolutionary Ernesto Che Guevara.

Shock in which was fall all world this message, today it is difficult to transfer. Those who remember reaction in the world on the death of John Lennon can make the remote representation that then was created. Many did not trust in truthfulness of the message on destruction of Che – and when on October, 15th, 1967 Fidel Castro has confirmed it, the anger and despair wave has risen again.

Shots of youth demonstrations and attacks on the American embassies worldwide remained in archives of a newsreel and on pages of newspapers and magazines of 30-year-old prescription. But any reader can learn, how ordinary American students reacted to a message about death of Che, for example: it is enough to take the book of the Pierce Paul Reed «Professor's daughter» in library and to read corresponding pages.

Today among right and among left it is fashionable to abuse Fidel Castro: for economy disorder, for violation of democracy and human rights, for totalitarism. All not so simple. Certainly, F.Kastro's opponents assert that before revolution of 1959 the economy of Cuba prospered. But it's full nonsense.

On Cuba prospered the mafia – not own but North American. The mafia has transformed Havana into one huge «a city of entertainments»: in a city of gambling houses, beaches, smart hotels, prostitutions, alcohol and drugs consumption. All entertaining business on Cuba was supervised by the American mafia. The Cuban authorities were supported by a mafia.

Even smart international hotels of Havana have been built on money which – for bribes – have been allocated to their American owners from the Cuban treasury. On island gangs of the Mafiosi which problem included abduction of girls and their compulsion to employment by prostitution ransacked: the rate of exploitation in brothels of Havana was so is high that average term of a life of the prostitute did not exceed seven years – and "contingent" all time demanded updating. The dictator Batista took million bribes and even has received in the form of "gifts" phone from gold and a chamber-pot from silver.

USA supervised almost 70 % of economy of Cuba (including 90 % of the mining industry, 90 % of the electric and telephone companies, 80 % of the municipal enterprises, 80 % of consumption of fuel, 40 % of manufacture of sugar-raw and 50 % of all crops of sugar). Actually the North American capital possessed still biggest influence since partially used figureheads – Cubans (especially often the mafia resorted it).

Direct investments of the USA in economy of Cuba have exceeded in 1958 $1 billion (more than in any another Latin America countries, except Venezuela). And Cuba did not receive anything: 2/3 incomes were outlets in the USA, and the remained means went not on manufacture expansion but on capture of the enterprises belonging to Cubans and the earths and on bribes to the Cuban officials for the purpose of evasion from taxes. The time of recovery of outlay of the American investments in the country did not exceed 3–5 years (the profit made from 20 to 40 cents for one enclosed dollar).

Thus the USA methodically and purposefully undermined own Cuban economy: in 40-th they have provoked crisis in the Cuban tobacco industry (having passed to purchases manila's tobacco – more low quality, but for nothing) and in alcohol manufacture (having replaced the Cuban rum Puerto-Rican's one). The USA meaningly transformed Cuba into the country of a monoculture (sugar cane), a monoproduct (sugar) and the monomarket (the market of the USA).

Business has reached that Americans have ruined manufacturers of the elementary products – even matches, shaving edges, house slippers, electrobulbs, soap were got to Cuba from the USA. Pricing out on the american goods and underestimating on cuban, the USA only from 1950 to 1959 have caused to Cuba a damage more than on $1 billion.

So «the prospering Cuba» looked before Castro and Che. «Democracy restoration» – the good purpose. But it is possible to restore only that already was. And on Cuba democracy looked so: the very first president of Cuba T. Estrada Palma has been "elected" in 1902 on this post by an electorals, carefully selected by the American occupational armies (and the Palma was the single candidate), in 1906 by means of falsification it has been re-elected and the flashed revolt of Cubans have suppressed by the American marines.

In 1906-1908 Cuba actually rules the American governor Charles Megun who has laid the foundation for "nice Cuban democratic tradition» – unrestrained corruption. The following president – Gomes – simply bought up votes and has become famous for monstrous embezzlement of public funds (has been nicknamed «Shark Gomes»). The third American intervention to Cuba (1912) "has presented" to Cubans of the new president – Menokl. And the following president – A. Sajjas (1921–1925) – was absolutely decorative figure since actually in the country rules the American general Krauder who even has generated the famous cabinet (and become history under a name «Krauder's hunta») and has marked the board the agreement (for a bribe) about granting to Cuba loan by the Morgan's bank in 50 million dollars on ruinous conditions for the Cuban economy.

Then there was a dictatorship of Machado, «tropical Mussolini» (1924–1933), become famous for terror and invented and remained till 1958 «porros» («death squadrons», secretly killing both abducting opponents of a mode and masking crimes under criminal). In 1933 Machado was will dethrones by sergeant Fulhensio Batisto – and since this time he actually was in power personally, as a result of the forged elections (1940–1944, 1952–1958) or behind backs of the proteges.

Whether or not after that to be surprised that when in 1960 F. Castro has started talking on a mass meeting about general election, meeting, to Castro's confusion, has suddenly started to scan: «We don't want elections! We don't want elections!» Castro then still the bourgeois revolutionary, sincerely aspired to such elections: it would make his power legal for neighbours and in the victory on elections and all the others (both friends and enemies) he have been assured for hundred percent: Castro's popularity and his «barbudos» was improbable. But for ordinary Cubans representative democracy meant: lie, falsification, corruption, terror.

And any parties on Cuba Castro did not forbid. Bourgeois politicians have curtailed from1959 to 1961 activity on island and have moved in emigration, they having found out that anybody does not wish to play by habitual rules with them . Some, the truth, have left up in arms in mountains – like Castro's for example. And three remained parties participating in struggle against Batista, found for the best in 1961 to unite.

It is ridiculous to hang up all dogs on Castro. It has got to a historical trap. Not he has created Cuba the country of a monoculture without power resources – and dependent by other countries (if not the USA, the USSR). He has not entered a revolutionary dictatorship – he has only followed by the wishes of cubans. And he don't bear responsibility that could not construct a socialism for lack of a socialist way of manufacture: it was not possible to anybody – not only in small poor Cuba, but also in the big rich USSR.

And that at Castro on Cuba all are competent, the medicine at level of the best European samples, is not present children dying of hunger and – unlike times Batista – nobody smashes university laboratories, the philharmonic orchestra and Alicia Alonso's ballet is a naked truth. Also there are no guarantees that Castro's falling will transform Cuba into the second South Korea, instead of in the second Haiti.

[El Presidente]

Great passage Dimitri. Thank You

The author should take into account that the high level of education in Cuba should save it from Haiti's fate.

In relation to how Che is thought of in Cuba I would have to say highly. He takes much of the credit for the revolution and none of the brickbats associated with its collapse....Fidel gets to carry those

[Ken Gargett]

Great passage Dimitri. Thank You

The author should take into account that the high level of education in Cuba should save it from Haiti's fate.

In relation to how Che is thought of in Cuba I would have to say highly. He takes much of the credit for the revolution and none of the brickbats associated with its collapse....Fidel gets to carry those

it is extraordinary just how much dying can boost a reputation. who knows what thye verdict on kennedy would be now if he was a doddering very old man confined to a chair?

that, and that last amazing photo of che (the iconic one seen everywhere), taken when he was already dead and i believe propped up for it, turned him into such a cult figure. i heard the bloke that took it interviewed a few years ago. and he was as surprised as anyone. only later when it was developed did he realise what he had. without that almost christ-like photo, again, who knows. i strongly suspect that che's reputation may not be quite what it is.

agree with rob re the view of che in cuba. some are unhappy that he is used to sell souvenirs in the manner that he is but most don't seem too phased (assume jose would be able to give a far more accurate view than rob or myself). it does seem that while fidel may have wanted him gone from cuba at the time, he has been happy to play on his death for the benefit of the revolution.

all that said, some of the stuff i've read would leave him not that far short of mengele. just how he has become a symbol of peace is utterly beyond me and compelling confirmation as to what a lot of gullible, duped imbeciles mopst of humanity has becoem, or always was. whatever side you are on, he was never a proponent of peace.

my understanding is that during the october missile standoff, che pushed very hard for nuclear missiles to be launched at the states and fidel was one of those instrumental in overriding him. if true, then whatever else fidel has done, he deserves credit and thanks for that. i'm fairly certain that was in the excellent book 'one hell of a gamble', ursenko and naftali, by on the crisis.

che has always struck me as an opportunistic murdering thug but history has been kind.

[Colt45]

it is extraordinary just how much dying can boost a reputation. who knows what thye verdict on kennedy would be now if he was a doddering very old man confined to a chair?

Which Kennedy? Actually, it doesn't matter - in my opinion, they've all reaped what they've sown. The biggest kick I get is when they are referred

to as "America's Royalty". After I rinse the vomit from my mouth, I laugh my behind off.

[cigarros]

Great passage Dimitri. Thank You

The author should take into account that the high level of education in Cuba should save it from Haiti's fate.

In relation to how Che is thought of in Cuba I would have to say highly. He takes much of the credit for the revolution and none of the brickbats associated with its collapse....Fidel gets to carry those

Thank you for comment Rob! Not all so is simple. After last events in Honduras in the Latin's countries ideas of Che have received a new life. I assured that in this military overthrow of the legal president will accuse again the USA. Latin America has considerably shifted to the left. Latin America which was only "backyard" of the USA now opens for other great powers more and more. In Latin America influence of Russia, China and Iran more and more increases in many spheres.

Recently France has joined them. President Nicolas Sarkozy has paid official visit to Brazil on December, 22-23. Two states have agreed not only about strengthening of commercial relations, but also about very important cooperation in military area. Now France will help the Brazilian navy fleet with construction of five submarines of new generation, including to one nuclear – the first similar submarine in Latin America.

Moreover France has agreed to transfer Brazil necessary technologies that further will give the chance to build similar submarines independently. Besides France will render to Brazil assistance in creation of so-called heavy helicopters which Brazil intends to export.

Without Che Latin America never would play such games))

[Ken Gargett]

Thank you for comment Rob! Not all so is simple. After last events in Honduras in the Latin's countries ideas of Che have received a new life. I assured that in this military overthrow of the legal president will accuse again the USA. Latin America has considerably shifted to the left. Latin America which was only "backyard" of the USA now opens for other great powers more and more. In Latin America influence of Russia, China and Iran more and more increases in many spheres.

Recently France has joined them. President Nicolas Sarkozy has paid official visit to Brazil on December, 22-23. Two states have agreed not only about strengthening of commercial relations, but also about very important cooperation in military area. Now France will help the Brazilian navy fleet with construction of five submarines of new generation, including to one nuclear – the first similar submarine in Latin America.

Moreover France has agreed to transfer Brazil necessary technologies that further will give the chance to build similar submarines independently. Besides France will render to Brazil assistance in creation of so-called heavy helicopters which Brazil intends to export.

Without Che Latin America never would play such games))

i thought that the only thing that the french military could build would have been signposts to paris for the invading army de jour.

[El Presidente]

i thought that the only thing that the french military could build would have been signposts to paris for the invading army de jour.

...and they would have been competing for that contract with the Italians

[Ken Gargett]

...and they would have been competing for that contract with the Italians

i want it on record that i am not responsible for the tanking of your french and italian markets!

[Chicago]

...and they would have been competing for that contract with the Italians

Hey, we are lovers, not belligerants!

[ARRV]

it is extraordinary just how much dying can boost a reputation. who knows what thye verdict on kennedy would be now if he was a doddering very old man confined to a chair?

that, and that last amazing photo of che (the iconic one seen everywhere), taken when he was already dead and i believe propped up for it, turned him into such a cult figure. i heard the bloke that took it interviewed a few years ago. and he was as surprised as anyone. only later when it was developed did he realise what he had. without that almost christ-like photo, again, who knows. i strongly suspect that che's reputation may not be quite what it is.

agree with rob re the view of che in cuba. some are unhappy that he is used to sell souvenirs in the manner that he is but most don't seem too phased (assume jose would be able to give a far more accurate view than rob or myself). it does seem that while fidel may have wanted him gone from cuba at the time, he has been happy to play on his death for the benefit of the revolution.

all that said, some of the stuff i've read would leave him not that far short of mengele. just how he has become a symbol of peace is utterly beyond me and compelling confirmation as to what a lot of gullible, duped imbeciles mopst of humanity has becoem, or always was. whatever side you are on, he was never a proponent of peace.

my understanding is that during the october missile standoff, che pushed very hard for nuclear missiles to be launched at the states and fidel was one of those instrumental in overriding him. if true, then whatever else fidel has done, he deserves credit and thanks for that. i'm fairly certain that was in the excellent book 'one hell of a gamble', ursenko and naftali, by on the crisis.

che has always struck me as an opportunistic murdering thug but history has been kind.

Saw a great t-shirt the other day - red t-shirt with the ubiquitous photo of Che with the statement "Who the f*ck is this guy?"

[GoSteelers]

Saw a great t-shirt the other day - red t-shirt with the ubiquitous photo of Che with the statement "Who the f*ck is this guy?"

Exactly what I thought should be on most of those Che shirts

My son had one and I asked him to study a little info on Che, he no longer wears it and also commented that he was glad he never wore it in front of certain friends of mine.

[skindiver]

I started studying spanish pretty seriously after my first trip to Cuba in 1997, and did a term paper in my third year college class on Che Guevara. So I studied the man pretty closely. Although I am not a communist or even a sympathiiser, the man stands out as probably the most perfect communist that ever lived. He truly believed in perfect communism perhaps more than Lenin or Marx.

He eschewed the trappings of power more so than Fidel or any others. In the end, though, his dreams of world wide socialism are only now coming into fruition. He is smiling down upon us-laughing probably at the economic crisis of capitalism.

The fact that he was ruthless is no myth. However, given the brutality of the Batista regime in Cuba that preceded the revolution, there was probably not alot of other mechanisms for change. In other words, you had to execute all your enemies or perish yourself.

To be clear, I am not apologizing for his actions, only trying to explain them.

[bunburyist]

Exactly what I thought should be on most of those Che shirts

My son had one and I asked him to study a little info on Che, he no longer wears it and also commented that he was glad he never wore it in front of certain friends of mine.

Aye, it's a bit like when you see (normally students) walking around in red t-shirts with the hammer and sickle or CCCP on. Even the briefest of research would put most people off what those symbols represent, so to me it's a bit like walking around with a ''I have a no idea what I'm doing'' sign around your neck.

As far as Che Guevara goes, I'd put him in that same bracket. Whilst a highly educated man and exceptional writer, his story is chequered with instances of brutality to not only his enemies,but often to his own men. Not to mention his political philosophy being so obviously flawed.

I've always thought the image is so popular because - as mentioned above - he looks a bit like Jesus, but more 'cool' and dare I say it, relevant. Easier to relate to, perhaps.

Anyway, first post - so hello eveyone!

[Ken Gargett]

not sure if anyone ever watches 'american dad' - i quite like it. great moment in a recent one when stan (ott right wing cia idiot for those not familiar) is horrified that his son is becoming a communist. goes into his room and rips down all the posters of hammers and sickles and lenin and stalin etc. his son wailing.

leaves up the one of che.

as he walks out, wiping his hands, stops and looks at che and then at his son then back at the che poster - "well at least you and i can agree on something. that 'planet of the apes' was a great movie". and walks out.

[Chicago]

Love it!