Aussies are not always politically correct :-)

[Padrino]

Free speech is perhaps the most powerful of all freedoms in a free democratic society... while it is the foundation of nation building, it has the power to plant the seeds of discord and hatred, undermine the foundations of society, fan the fire of anarchy, and completely destroy a country.

Is it not usually the disenfanchised within a democracy that when making their grievances openly known are usually considered Anarchists ? In these times a completely free democracy is a very rare creature, almost extinct.

By definition Anarchy is a state of lawlessness. Can one assume that in a true free democracy with educated masses that haven't been dumbed down by the media and marketing machines, any form of Anarchy or hate speech will have little chance of success ? Assuming the population considers itself genuinely free and democratic.

In my personal and honest opinion, after travelling for the greater part of 13 years in a total 22 different countries that true freedom/democracy is very much an illusion.

[PigFish]

I am not in the position to tell anyone when to speak up or shut up. I am a firm believer in free speech regardless of who gets hurt as a result. You have to take that in context however; freedom comes with a corresponding responsibility but the current trend to find parity between freedom and etiquette is a travesty.

The context of the above statement is focused on the importance of an individual’s freedom verses another individual’s feelings. In reality is one not more important than another? A man’s ability to speak freely dictates the freedom or lack of freedom he will be allowed to exercise. Are good feelings more important than individual freedoms? The importance of freedom of speech in my mind pertains to the right to criticize those empowered (presumably by him) to limit his rights. It is an integral part of a balance of power in a society that embraces laws over anarchy. Laws are the antithesis of freedom and it is the laws themselves that must be constrained for freedom to exist. It is the unjust law that truly insults the free man. When the loss of freedom itself becomes the issue the stakes are sufficiently high that there is no room for tender feelings. One must then have the right to criticize and correspondingly insult another or he has no freedom of speech at all. Freedom is always a double-edged sword.

Think of yourself as God for a moment even if you don’t believe in God in a classic sense. Being God you created creatures that owe to you their existence. In order to make them free you gave them “free” will. With that free will they can rebuke you without apparent recourse. Even God deals with the paradox of true freedom! Freedom is an ideal and you need to be capable of risking the loss of all personal niceties and security to posses it. Yes, it should be rejoiced in and not abused, but that is the beauty of it and the fragility of it. Any compromise leads to further compromise when freedom is involved. Freedom is not a gray area it is an ideal.

Freedom is commonly misunderstood. Lets take this cigar board as an example. The fact is you have no right be heard here. This appears to be a public place but it is in fact private property for public use. The owner, lets call him Rob, gives you limited license to use the space within certain boundaries. We call those boundaries the rules. When you come here, you come here as a guest of the house. You have agreed, whether you like it or not to check some of your freedoms at the door. The rules are simple and easy to follow. It should be understood however that your freedom does not take precedence over the general enjoyment of others who are members here. So when the rules state that you cannot make racial, sexual… blah, blah, blah you should recognize and understand that you are not truly free to do whatever you want here. Now this is just an example. Please remember that I have nothing to do with the rules at FoH or the administration of this site. It is simply my perception of how it works.

When I make comments about staying clear of political or incendiary topics it is not out of fear, lack of knowledge or opinion. It is out of respect. Respect for my brother’s house and his other guests. When I choose not to opine on a topic when my views are as strong as another’s it is again a result of that respect. Freedom is important but so are good manners, courtesy, compassion and empathy for your friends and neighbors especially in social places like this one. I understand that I have no “right” to be here.

One last comment. If you look over the beginning of this topic you can see the range of interpretations that members have used as a basis of discussion. What was the post really about, well only Rob can tell you but as a matter of redundancy I believe it was about straight talk not about torture. The interesting thing about it is how quickly some members either jumped in to condemn or condone the subject matter of the politician’s statements not the fact that he made the statements in the first place. I am not saying they were wrong in doing so, I am simply saying that my perception of what the topic was about was in fact not in what he said but in the candid nature of how he stated it. Perception of what you read and what you write is everything here. I just wanted to emphasize that certain topics create an environment for insult of other members. Post about them if you want to, that is your choice. Just keep in mind that for everyone that agrees with you and wants to jump on board there is likely another who wants to call you an ass. -Piggy

[Padrino]

Damn it Piggy.... you just HAD to do it after my post.

When I make comments about staying clear of political or incendiary topics it is not out of fear, lack of knowledge or opinion. It is out of respect. Respect for my brother’s house and his other guests.

I agree. The love of cigars brought us all together so why the heck divide ourselves by trying to hammer our political/religious views on each other. Looking for freedom of speech/democracy in a forum ? it would be more constructive to look for it/fight for it outside the forum in everyday life.

[maalouly]

This is a serious thread! I am swetting reading it already ... can we stop and open a bottle of scotch or wine and our favourite cigar and pretend it's all good?

On a serious note I understand what you are all saying and both side of the fence are right in a way. But all you need to do is travel to a Muslim country and you will understand what Rob is saying, it's always their way or the highway. There is no decomcracy (they will get there though in about 500 years). I do not want to offend anyone but I am speakng from a personal experience by visiting these countries and working in some.

I understand that the comments made by the gentleman will put our soliders at risk and I agree but let's be realistic most of us would have given the same answer if asked behind closed doors.

Now let's stop this seirousness and get back to talking about cigars! for a second I thought I was reading ninemsn.

[Freefallguy]

One last comment. If you look over the beginning of this topic you can see the range of interpretations that members have used as a basis of discussion. What was the post really about, well only Rob can tell you but as a matter of redundancy I believe it was about straight talk not about torture. The interesting thing about it is how quickly some members either jumped in to condemn or condone the subject matter of the politician’s statements not the fact that he made the statements in the first place. I am not saying they were wrong in doing so, I am simply saying that my perception of what the topic was about was in fact not in what he said but in the candid nature of how he stated it. Perception of what you read and what you write is everything here. I just wanted to emphasize that certain topics create an environment for insult of other members. Post about them if you want to, that is your choice. Just keep in mind that for everyone that agrees with you and wants to jump on board there is likely another who wants to call you an ass. -Piggy

Bravo! Gone are the days of the grand orators... Abraham,Winston, Golda, Maggie, Ronnie.

So Piggy, when do you run?

[Colt45]

the current trend to find parity between freedom and etiquette is a travesty.

A number of great points by all - the above is the crux of the matter for me.

To go off on a bit of a tangent:

How much better off we would be to raise a generation of children who question everything, who seek the truth, who are taught to challenge their own beliefs and thoughts.

I'm not sure it's possible in the era of play dates, time outs, kids who sit in their parent's cars while waiting for the school bus, ADD, x box.......

"little johnny's behaving badly - he must have ADD. I'll put him on ritalin and take him to a therapist"

[DrunkenMonkey]

I'm relatively new to this forum, and so I don't know a lot of you folks very well, but I just wanted to add a few cents.

First, Freedom of speech doesn't mean you're always free to say whatever you want. For example, if you come in my house and say something I find offensive, you'll not be free to stay inside my house any longer. Unless your a friend of mine, in which case I'm probably used to you saying things that I find offensive. Similarly, this forum isn't a public forum; it was set up by one or a few guys, who set the rules, and if we don't agree with the rules, we shouldn't join the forum. We agree to abide by the rules set up. But public speech, the right to say anything you damn well please in public, is what is, or should be, protected by law.

If someone says politically incorrect, or even stupid or offensive things in a public forum, like this redneck mayor or whoever he is, who feels that it's acceptable to throw around racist epithets, the cure for the problem isn't to curtail his right to free speech. The best cure for incorrect speech, and by that I mean speech that is offensive, erroneous, deliberately misleading, racist, etc., is to make sure that the rest of the world has the right to challenge whatever he or she finds wrong in the speaker's views. More free speech is the cure for offensive speech, in my opinion.

[sinnyc]

Hmmm, this thread grew quite a bit larger than I guessed it would.

I'd like to clarify my point in my admittedly flippant response to Sandholm's post. I don't believe I indicated that the Oz Councilor shouldn't be allowed to think, believe, or state his beliefs. I am a firm believer in freedom of speech. Hell, I live in the U.S. and all you have to do is flip on any of our cable "news" stations at any time of the day or night and you'll get as much opinionated free speech as you can stomach. (When did news shows actually become platforms for the unabashed pushing of a given network's point of view, anyway?)

I didn't think the Councilor's language was particularly politically incorrect although I did find it to be tasteless. What I took issue with was the fact that this elected official was publicly advocating the practice of torture - acts rightfully recognized as illegal by both national and international law.

Don't think me "weak on terror" or whatever the current phrase du jour is, proclaimed by idiots who attack everyone who don't agree with their point of view: I knew several people who died or who had loved ones who died in the World Trade Center during the attacks of 9/11. I want nothing more than to see the entirety of the Taliban either dead or imprisoned for the rest of their lives for their roles in various attacks as well as for fomenting hatred around the world. I do not, however, believe that any nation should resort to torture to achieve that goal. Such actions undermine the very tenets our countries were founded upon.

Talking a lot of crap like that Councilor is nothing but false bravado. Worse, as Sandholm pointed out, such rhetoric (not to mention the actual practice) makes life MORE dangerous for our men and women in the field. So my point was not to censor the Councilor and other like him but rather to publicly take them to task for their statements.

Expressing a desire to throw your country's founding ideals away to achieve some objective is frankly unpatriotic and subversive. In a society that values free speech, it shouldn't be censored but it should be recognized for what it is and roundly condemned.

- Tim

[laficion]

"little johnny's behaving badly - he must have ADD. I'll put him on ritalin and take him to a therapist"

Question: How do you get rid of a Civilized World ?

Answer : When it gets so Civilized and so disconnected from reality that no one

is able to talk back.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[JMH]

I'm not sure it's possible in the era of play dates, time outs, kids who sit in their parent's cars while waiting for the school bus, ADD, x box.......

"little johnny's behaving badly - he must have ADD. I'll put him on ritalin and take him to a therapist"

I'm only 21 & I was brought up in the manner which rob described.

[El Presidente]

Talking a lot of crap like that Councilor is nothing but false bravado. Worse, as Sandholm pointed out, such rhetoric (not to mention the actual practice) makes life MORE dangerous for our men and women in the field. So my point was not to censor the Councilor and other like him but rather to publicly take them to task for their statements.

Tim, what we have had on this thread is a great open discussion which was conducted eloquently and passionately.

Those who feel strongly should (and have) censored the Councillor by putting forward reasons why he is wrong (as you and Sandholm have).

The right to do so is the same as others to support him. It then becomes a battle of ideas and persuasion.

Tis a beautiful thing ......."ideas and the art of persuasion". Far better in my eyes than "legislation and prohibition".

Thankyou to all for a thoroughly thought provoking thread!

[Colt45]

I'm only 21 & I was brought up in the manner which rob described.

Then there is still a glimmer of hope.

[smpf67]

Is this a true statement of what he said? If it is, I LOVE it! I lived in Texas for 10 years, and I thought we were the only ones who thought like that!!! It's good to see others are like-minded.... nowadays we cant say anything like that in the US. We would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and just to rub salt in the wound, our government would probably release another terrorist from GITMO just to spite us.

I want to live in Australia now!!

Cheers!

[MIKA27]

I agree. The love of cigars brought us all together so why the heck divide ourselves by trying to hammer our political/religious views on each other. Looking for freedom of speech/democracy in a forum ? it would be more constructive to look for it/fight for it outside the forum in everyday life.

Well said mate, I agree.

Leave the politics to the politicians and leave the cigars to all of us who are on this damn fine forum for just that, enjoying a CC and sharing our experiences.