the quality perception pyramid

[Ken Gargett]

rob kindly lent me a terrific book on the history of cohiba. really interesting. only up to '97 so a little out of date with the latest developments but no matter.

one of the most interesting things in it was what they called at the time, the Habano Pyramid. it basically set out the positioning of each of the brands 'based on studies' etc etc, as to where they sit in terms of quality and the perception thereof.

the brands all fall into one of nine levels. cohiba sits alone at the top. levels 2 and 3 also consist only of one brand. level 4 has three brands, level 5 and 6 each have four brands. 7 has five and the 8 and 9 are 4 and 3 respectively. the last three levels are the lesser brands though i'd have thought SLR, juan lopez and el rey del mundo might have done a little better.

level five has hoyo, bolivar, punch and la gloria cubana.

for those that have not seen the thing, wonder if you like to have a guess as to which brand sits alone on the second level, which sits alone on the third level and which three make up level four. will post the answers.

another intereting thing to emerge from the book was that the first cigar to be called a robusto was the cohiba. that surprised me. doesn't mean that others were not made prior to that, just that this was apparently the first time the name was used.

[perfectform]

rob kindly lent me a terrific book on the history of cohiba. really interesting. only up to '97 so a little out of date with the latest developments but no matter.

one of the most interesting things in it was what they called at the time, the Habano Pyramid. it basically set out the positioning of each of the brands 'based on studies' etc etc, as to where they sit in terms of quality and the perception thereof.

the brands all fall into one of nine levels. cohiba sits alone at the top. levels 2 and 3 also consist only of one brand. level 4 has three brands, level 5 and 6 each have four brands. 7 has five and the 8 and 9 are 4 and 3 respectively. the last three levels are the lesser brands though i'd have thought SLR, juan lopez and el rey del mundo might have done a little better.

level five has hoyo, bolivar, punch and la gloria cubana.

for those that have not seen the thing, wonder if you like to have a guess as to which brand sits alone on the second level, which sits alone on the third level and which three make up level four. will post the answers.

another intereting thing to emerge from the book was that the first cigar to be called a robusto was the cohiba. that surprised me. doesn't mean that others were not made prior to that, just that this was apparently the first time the name was used.

2nd lvl: Montecristo

3rd lvl: H. Upmann

4th lvl: Partagas, Ramon Allones, Romeo y Julieta

[Ken Gargett]

2nd lvl: Montecristo

3rd lvl: H. Upmann

4th lvl: Partagas, Ramon Allones, Romeo y Julieta

very close. monte is indeed alone on level 2.

both partagas and r&j are on level 4.

[purosdave]

2nd lvl: Montecristo

3rd lvl: H. Upmann

4th lvl: Partagas, Ramon Allones, Romeo y Julieta

very close. monte is indeed alone on level 2.

both partagas and r&j are on level 4.

Then I'm guessing Hoyo is on 3 and Upmann on 4, but who's on first...

[Ken Gargett]

Then I'm guessing Hoyo is on 3 and Upmann on 4, but who's on first...

mentioned above that hoyo is on five.

the other one on level four is upmann.

level three is a major surprise - at least for me.

[asmith]

mentioned above that hoyo is on five.

the other one on level four is upmann.

level three is a major surprise - at least for me.

Quintero.

[aavkk]

Bolivar? Id like it to be RA but probably not.

[Colt45]

level three is a major surprise - at least for me.

My level three guess is Fonseca.

[ATGroom]

My first thought was Trini because of their diplomatic cred and pigtails, but as I over think it I'm starting to lean toward Cuaba.

[Ken Gargett]

My first thought was Trini because of their diplomatic cred and pigtails, but as I over think it I'm starting to lean toward Cuaba.

cuaba it is. according to the quality perception back in the latter part of the 90's, cuaba was only exceeded by cohiba and montecristo. did whoever come p with that ever actually smoke a cuaba? boggles the mind.

[El Presidente]

cuaba it is. according to the quality perception back in the latter part of the 90's, cuaba was only exceeded by cohiba and montecristo. did whoever come p with that ever actually smoke a cuaba? boggles the mind.

Ken, if you have time (I'm kidding)....type out the piramide.

[Ken Gargett]

1. cohiba

2. monte

3. cuaba (seriously).

4. partagas, upmann, r&j.

5. hoyo, bolivar, la gloria cubana, punch.

6. home allones, por larranaga, diplo, marquez.

7. quai d'orsay, el rey del mundo, juan lopez, sancho panza, SLR

8. troya, fonseca, cano, los statos.

9. cabanas y carbajal, quintero, belinda

any thoughts?

[Guest rob]

any thoughts?

It makes me sad when my favourite brands (partagas and Upmann) are behind Cuaba and Montecristo.

[perfectform]

1. cohiba

2. monte

3. cuaba (seriously).

4. partagas, upmann, r&j.

5. hoyo, bolivar, la gloria cubana, punch.

6. home allones, por larranaga, diplo, marquez.

7. quai d'orsay, el rey del mundo, juan lopez, sancho panza, SLR

8. troya, fonseca, cano, los statos.

9. cabanas y carbajal, quintero, belinda

any thoughts?

My thought is that I can't believe it. No way in hell (to me) is Cuaba higher on there than the delicious Partagas, Upmann, Bolivar for sure. I could go on and on...oh nevermind. Funny how times change huh?

[Rogers72]

Why don't we each try to do this with what we believe to be the best and see if we can average them out and get a current production (06,07,08) FOH pyramid. It might be better to not be so concerned with the amount of vitolas in a certain marca but rather just how you feel the overall quality is of the tobacco in the selection that is available in that marca...excluding EL's and RE's I think as well??? Should we keep the same format (levels 1, 2, 3, one marca each, etc.)? I'll give it a go based on my very limited experience keeping in mind that some of this may be based on general consensus as I have never tried a Guantanamera...

1.) Cohiba

2.) Trinidad

3.) Partagas

4.) Robaina, Upmann, Bolivar

5.) RyJ, Hoyo, Monte, SLR

6.) RA, Por Larranaga, Dip, Punch, Sancho Panza

7.) LGC, Quai D Orsay, Juan Lopez, San Cristobal, Cuaba, ERDM

8.) all the rest

Edited to add that this does not necessarily comply with my favorite marcas. Those being:

1.) Partagas 2.) Bolivar 3.) Ramon Allones

[Mr. Japan]

I think Cuaba is up there because the pyramid is been done at time the brand came out and HSA wanted push on it but failed with quality.

If the EL is the new way, it can stay up there IMHO

[purosdave]

Perhaps, considering this is a "quality" perception pyramid, the Cuaba's are so highly ranked because of their shape being rolled only by higher level torcedores. If I recall, when Cuaba were first released they were all formed by hand rather than using molds, but I very well may be mistaken.

[nem]

This was how HSA ranked the brands in terms of perceived quality based on market information, or perhaps even how they wanted customers to perceive their various marcas in terms of relative quality.

With regard to perceived quality, I think we should also keep in mind that some brands are more popular in one country/region than another. For example, from my understanding, some of the newer brands like SCdLH and VR simply don't sell in certain markets. Also, which brands regional/national distributors select as ER's speaks of this as well.

[Colt45]

Why don't we each try to do this with what we believe to be the best

Excluding cigars like Piedra etc, I feel I should be able to expect the highest quality from all the lines.

[Ken Gargett]

I think Cuaba is up there because the pyramid is been done at time the brand came out and HSA wanted push on it but failed with quality.

If the EL is the new way, it can stay up there IMHO

i suspect there is much in what you say. i really do think that habanos intended cuaba to be one of the flagship brands and probably have absolutely no idea what went so wrong.

that said, and it is terrific to see the new EL perform so well, for me, they really do need to do a lot more than one good smoke to deserve that level. think of the track record of so many great partagas cigars. i don't think you can wipe all that out with one EL. when cuaba start bringing the standard of the new EL to all their cigars, then they can have that rating. in the meantime, for me, it is an insult to many great brands for them to be ranked anywhere but stone motherless last. but let's hope it is a new dawn and that things do improve from here.

[Jay Hemingway]

that's funny i remember reading that before davidoff and cohiba, el ray del mundo were considered the finest habanos in the world. most expensive too.

wonder why they were rated so low here?

[nem]

I haven't been smoking long enough to know this, so I'll have to ask . . . In the late 90's, did the sole tier 2 brand Montecristo enjoy a noticeable price premium over Partagas, Upmann, etc. ?

[Lanthor]

I would be interested in reading Ken and the Prez's quality perception pyramid for the last, say 3-5 years.

[El Presidente]

1. SLR, La Gloria Cubana, Diplomatico, Quai D'Orsay,

2. Upmann, Trinidad, Punch, Ramon Allones, Bolivar, Juan Lopez

3. Cohiba, HDM, ERDM, Por Larranaga, Montecristo, Partagas

4. Sancho Panza, Rafael Gonzalez. Fonseca, Cuaba

5. The rest.

I am just talking quality folks....not taste preference. Time period is the past 3 years.

Interestingly (at least to me) The top tier and bottom tier are all low production cigars. In the bottom tier shown (Sancho etc) they appear to have given up based upon some of the rubbish I have seen over the past 3 years. Very disappointing.

[Ken Gargett]

I would be interested in reading Ken and the Prez's quality perception pyramid for the last, say 3-5 years.

it is a very diificult thing to do as i think that there is too much variation across a single brand but giving it a go, i'd have -

1. Cohiba (largely due to siglo vi's, the maduro line - tho i think that the later releases of these don't match the early ones, some terrific esplendido's but i know that they can be variable, and a few others), SLR (largely due to the DC's - and i accept some variation from year to year - but also a few others), La Gloria Cubana (but this tends to be on cigars with say 3 to 10 years of age and looked at very few under that so not sure if they are off or on as far as very recently), Por Larranaga (based on a limited range but what i have seen has been terrific), Bolivar (again limited range but loving what i have had from them of late, though not convinced by these new fat boys).

2. Montecristo, Partagas (tho my heart says to elevate them - i would have no problem with them in top rank but a few wonky ones - the new EL for example, Upmann, Trinidad, Punch, Ramon Allones. i know that is broad but i think that these are there or thereabouts.

3. , Juan Lopez, HDM, ERDM

4. Sancho Panza, Rafael Gonzalez. Fonseca, Diplomatico, Quai D'Orsay. these are here largely on hearsay as i simply have not tried enough to judge fairly.

5. The rest.

6. Daylight.

7. More daylight.

8. Cuaba (with a ray of hope from the new LE).