Expensive Cigars and EL\'s....worth the extra money??

[stevejb]

» Tampa.

»

» You hit it on the head...if unintentionally.

»

» The retailer needs a bait to draw in purchasers and entice a higher spend

» per stick. Voila..the Habanos EL series.

»

» Something new every 3-4 months, keeps the retailer happy because instore

» stick buyers are not bothered by higher than average prices in order to

» try am EL stick. The number one question a retailer is asked by a

» customer? "What's new?"

»

» The Habanos EL series has been immensely successfull in keeping NC's off

» the shelves in both Europe and Asia. Don't believe me? Then ask a European

» or Asian retailer how many Padron, Cuesta Rey, Greycliffe, Puros Indios,

» OPUS or Ashton they sell? In the majority of cases, in wet cigars, Cubans

» account for 90% of sales, Davidoff 5% and 5% the rest. Each of the above

» brands has been launched internationally.

»

» Here is my beef with the EL.

»

» 1. It should be something special. It should have a unique charachteristic

» which is being celebrated. Too many El's to date have been hum ho.

» 2. Regional releases should be scrapped and they should be chanelled

» through the LE series.

» 3. Dark wrappers should be dropped or offered as an option.

» 4. Boxes should be numbered.

» 5. Celebration and release of some smaller gauge LE.

» 6. More smaller packaging. 10's are great and not budget busters.

»

» Ideally, The Habanos blurb on an LE should be like this:

»

» Welcome to the Por Larranaga Magnum LE. This famous vitola was

» discontinued in 1977 and was charachterised by it's rich, sweet and

» powerful presence. Our master blender, Enrique Brinones, has recreated

» this great cigar by Blending____________________________

» ____________________________ from the plantations of

» ________________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________________

» The filler, wrapper and binder has been aged for 3 years by

» ________________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________

»

» 20,000 cigars have been rolled and each one of the 2000 boxes are

» individually numbered.

»

» Enjoy

What Rob said.

Any chances of the Cohiba media corona becoming regular production?

[wasch_24]

»...With me, once a cigar

» goes in my humidor, it no longer has monetary value. This way, when I

» smoke it, I don't think about the expense to taste ratio, I only think

» about enjoying the cigar.

I do the same thing.

I just can't afford Cohibas and Trinidads very often and have yet to enjoy an EL.

Was that post a little glimse of the future Rob?:-D

[swl]

Premium pricing is never worth the money. However, if you have the money but not the time to smoke often, then I would say "why not?" Life's too short as it is. :-D

[kab55]

I'll let you know in about 5 years when I start smoking some of mine :-P

[dysfunctional]

but I have the attitude...you just gotta try... so if the EL's are available as loose sticks I will usually get some to say " I've tried them and " how they were.... not for bragging rights but just to try and ssample them.....

[thschrminm]

LESS EL's more discontinued vitolas like the RAC!!!

Habanos is making me buy Regionales to replace my RAC's with Eminencias...

[Passingwinds]

No offense Tampa1257, but I pretty much totally disagree with you. Nobody needs to tell Habanos how to run their business. I think they're doing quite well on their own and don't need any help from armchair gringoes. I'm glad that they take different batches of tobacco and create limited edition cigars. To me, it makes sense that they would take some of the cream-of-the-crop tobacco and put together a small quantity of special cigars. Not that many people are going to buy them and it's not going to affect the production of regular cigars. I enjoy smoking a wide variety of cigars and like to include some limited edition cigars in that variety.

You seem pretty worked up about this subject. I'm not being antagonistic. I just disagree with you.

[harwellplant]

» No offense Tampa1257, but I pretty much totally disagree with you. Nobody

» needs to tell Habanos how to run their business. I think they're doing

» quite well on their own and don't need any help from armchair gringoes.

» I'm glad that they take different batches of tobacco and create limited

» edition cigars. To me, it makes sense that they would take some of the

» cream-of-the-crop tobacco and put together a small quantity of special

» cigars. Not that many people are going to buy them and it's not going to

» affect the production of regular cigars. I enjoy smoking a wide variety

» of cigars and like to include some limited edition cigars in that

» variety.

»

» You seem pretty worked up about this subject. I'm not being antagonistic.

» I just disagree with you.

there has been a lot written on this subject in other places. els remain a sore spot for a number of very experienced habanophiles, much like chuck (tampa). to address what you say, i don't know that others would have as severe a problem with els if they were as you say "special". more and more with the releases, however, they are not special, other than a mere designation that they are limited editions. the majority of the el releases have, imo and those of numerous others, been ho hum at best, and not deserving of the special marketing attention given them. you take this base problem and multiply it out to include factors like el releases driving a sizeable portion of the grey and fake markets, and then heap on more arguably more desireable regional releases that are not available world wide, and you have some serious problems among more than "armchair gringos" - much of the disdain has come from consumers very knowledgeable - and heavily financially involved - in the industry.

[Elric]

» No offense Tampa1257, but I pretty much totally disagree with you. Nobody

» needs to tell Habanos how to run their business. I think they're doing

» quite well on their own and don't need any help from armchair gringoes.

»

Take it easy pal, I don't know your ethnicity but some folks are not going to take kindly to the "gringo" term. It is a cigar BB. People express their opinions like adults...civilized adults that is.

Have a smoke.

[Wiley]

ELs are hard for me to justify. A lot more money for a questionable amount of benefit.

However, as long as they don't hurt the regular cigar production, I don't care what they do.

In response to Passingwinds, any business that takes that kind of arrogrant air with their customers is going to lose customers, if not their business.

Also, be careful with the "gringo" word. There are plenty of Americans of Hispanic ancestry, and they like being called gringo even less than the WASPs do.

[Passingwinds]

» In response to Passingwinds, any business that takes that kind of

» arrogrant air with their customers is going to lose customers, if not

» their business.

»

» Also, be careful with the "gringo" word. There are plenty of Americans of

» Hispanic ancestry, and they like being called gringo even less than the

» WASPs do.

I doubt the Cubans are worried that no one will buy other Cuban cigars from them because they put out ELs. Perhaps General Motors should start worrying because if they keep selling Cadillacs consumers will get pissed off and not buy Chevrolets? It doesn't make sense to me.

As for the gringo reference, I have never encountered a single person who was offended by the term. Considering a gringo is of American or English descent, I have a hard time believing a Hispanic person would take offense at the mere use of the word in a cigar forum. Generally the term is used by Hispanics to describe non-Hispanics.

Aren't you taking a risk using the term "WASP?" Think of all the cigar smokers that could be offended!

[Passingwinds]

»

» Take it easy pal, I don't know your ethnicity but some folks are not going

» to take kindly to the "gringo" term. It is a cigar BB. People express their

» opinions like adults...civilized adults that is.

As a civilized adult, I didn't expect others to get so easily miffed by the use of a commonly-used, slightly politically-incorrect term. I didn't realize cigars smokers were so hyper-sensitive.

[Passingwinds]

From a purely economic perspective, the fair market value of something is the price a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller in the absence of any undue external forces. In free markets, supply and demand determine the price. Of course, this applies to cigars as much as anything else. So, speaking strictly from an economic sense, the value of a box of cigars that sell for $100 is $100 and the value of a box that sells for $400 is $400. The market has determined that the value of the higher-priced box is justified at $400 because people are willing to pay it. It doesn't really matter if Joe Blow from Cocomoe doesn't believe it- that's one person's opinion. The market determines the actual value.

I hope no one takes offense to my reference to Joe Blow from Cocomoe. I have become aware that there are some posters here who are sensitive to this type of reference. So if your name is Joe Blow, or if you are from Cocomoe, or if you're just standing up for others who might possibly take offense, please excuse me.

All I'm saying is, while it may be interesting to discuss what each individual thinks the value of a limited edition cigar should be, we already know what the market (actual buyers and actual sellers) have determined the value to be. One is opinion and the other is fact.

[Tampa1257]

» No offense Tampa1257, but I pretty much totally disagree with you. Nobody

» needs to tell Habanos how to run their business. I think they're doing

» quite well on their own and don't need any help from armchair gringoes.

» I'm glad that they take different batches of tobacco and create limited

» edition cigars. To me, it makes sense that they would take some of the

» cream-of-the-crop tobacco and put together a small quantity of special

» cigars. Not that many people are going to buy them and it's not going to

» affect the production of regular cigars. I enjoy smoking a wide variety

» of cigars and like to include some limited edition cigars in that

» variety.

»

» You seem pretty worked up about this subject. I'm not being antagonistic.

» I just disagree with you.

Passing of Wind,

Nice way of calling yourself a Fart.

As for me being a sensitive cigar smoker, let me share something with you. While I may not be Hispanic, I am not a “Gringo” either. I am a Cherokee Indian, so if you want to call me an American Indian or a Native American, I have no issue with that.

Addressing you comments about the obligation of the passionate consumer voicing their opinions about the current marketing efforts and supplying a Company with educated feedback is priceless. Having a degree in both Marketing and Management, I have a keen insight into what a manufacturer is looking for from the buying consumer. Lord knows I have written enough marketing surveys searching for feedback in order to better supply the market with a product that they are receptive to. In my humble opinion, it is not only our right, but a solemn duty and obligation for us as passionate Habanos smokers and buyers to give Habanos S.A. the foreknowledge of what their actions are having with the market.

As for the ploy of creating a Edición Limitada, if they were to have produced a superior product, then perhaps a premium price point might have been justified. Sadly, this is just not the case, and that friend is just a FACT.

You make a comment as if you have a factual information concerning the production not affecting the regular production of the day in and day out Habanos. Only someone that in fact has inside information could possible make that card Blanche statement. Thus, unless you work directly for Habanos S.A., then I’ll kindly request that you keep your comments in check unless you can back them up with fact. Do you work for Habanos?

Finally, I will agree with you that both you and I can disagree with each other concerning the issue. Some people enjoy walking through life as a follower; some people take the bull by the horns and make things happen. I prefer to be one of the ones that speak passionately about a love of my life, and if I can voice my opinion, perhaps I can make a positive change not only for myself, but for every other lover of the Habanos Leaf.

[dragon]

<<< Addressing you comments about the obligation of the passionate consumer voicing their opinions about the current marketing efforts and supplying a Company with educated feedback is priceless. >>>

Agreed 100%, many large companies spend millions of dollars per year via surveys and interviews to collect consumer opinions about their current products as well as proposed new products. Consumer feedback is a valuable tool for nearly every company.

[wasch_24]

Well, I guess it's inevitable on every board.

[harwellplant]

» Well, I guess it's inevitable on every board.

true that.

[CigarZen]

I agree too agree that it is in both our, and Habanos', interest to provide honest straight-forward feedback.

I too question the value of ELs. I say that having bought them in the past. And in order to be informed re this passion I have smoked most all the ELs that have been released. For me, I think the consumer is better off buying 2 boxes of well made regular production. One to smoke now, and one to age. Most all the very best cigars I have smoked were regular production -- a nice colorado (or even tan) regular wrapper taste better to my palate.

I think Rob's idea re the PL Magnum is spot on. Alternatively, release cigars with 5 or 7 or even 10 year old tobacco. I admit it takes more effort to screen the raw material when new and try to project what will age well, but I believe there are people in Cubatabacco (sp?) that can do it.

Give hell Tampa.;-) ;-)

[CigarZen]

To be clear regarding my suggestion on aged cigars. I am suggesting first age the raw materials 3 or 5 years, than roll the cigar, box them in a nice cedar varnished box, and age them for another 5 years. Then release them. Sort of what what happened before the boom. :-P :-P

[Passingwinds]

» Passing of Wind,

»

» Nice way of calling yourself a Fart.

»

» As for me being a sensitive cigar smoker, let me share something with you.

» While I may not be Hispanic, I am not a “Gringo” either. I am a Cherokee

» Indian, so if you want to call me an American Indian or a Native American,

» I have no issue with that.

»

» Addressing you comments about the obligation of the passionate consumer

» voicing their opinions about the current marketing efforts and supplying a

» Company with educated feedback is priceless. Having a degree in both

» Marketing and Management, I have a keen insight into what a manufacturer

» is looking for from the buying consumer. Lord knows I have written enough

» marketing surveys searching for feedback in order to better supply the

» market with a product that they are receptive to. In my humble opinion, it

» is not only our right, but a solemn duty and obligation for us as

» passionate Habanos smokers and buyers to give Habanos S.A. the

» foreknowledge of what their actions are having with the market.

»

» As for the ploy of creating a Edición Limitada, if they were to have

» produced a superior product, then perhaps a premium price point might have

» been justified. Sadly, this is just not the case, and that friend is just a

» FACT.

»

» You make a comment as if you have a factual information concerning the

» production not affecting the regular production of the day in and day out

» Habanos. Only someone that in fact has inside information could possible

» make that card Blanche statement. Thus, unless you work directly for

» Habanos S.A., then I’ll kindly request that you keep your comments in

» check unless you can back them up with fact. Do you work for Habanos?

»

» Finally, I will agree with you that both you and I can disagree with each

» other concerning the issue. Some people enjoy walking through life as a

» follower; some people take the bull by the horns and make things happen. I

» prefer to be one of the ones that speak passionately about a love of my

» life, and if I can voice my opinion, perhaps I can make a positive change

» not only for myself, but for every other lover of the Habanos Leaf.

Tampa,

This is not an ethnic issue for me. I used the term "gringo" because that is the term Cubans might use to identify Americans. I was speaking from their frame of reference, not my own. And the term was not specifically applied to you, I said, "...they don't need help from armchair gringoes (sp)," referring to Americans as a group.

The term "gringo" is not necessarily disparaging. My Spanish dictionary defines it as, "an American or European." It is derived from the Greek word "griego" which means stranger or foreigner.

It seems to me a couple of individuals, in response to my disagreeing with you, decided to "play the race card" and create an ethnic issue where there was none. From my perspective, if any one wants to get their panties all in a bunch over the political correctness of the term "gringos" in the context in which it was used, let them.

Getting back to the issue, and away from political-correctness police, marketing surveys are alright, but they have their limitations. They're similar to political polls in some ways. It depends on who you ask and how you phrase the questions. Trying to predict what consumers want is not that easy. What is easy is to look back at what has already happened. The fact that the Cubans keep making limited edition cigars and keep selling them is pretty strong evidence that consumers must want them.

To me, it is interesting that you are actually campaigning against limited edition cigars. Most people just don't buy them if they don't want them. You don't want them for yourself and you don't want anyone else to have them either. You state that it is not only your right, its your solemn duty and obligation to forewarn Habanos SA about the repercussions that producing these cigars will have. Personally, I like the opportunity to choose to buy the occasional limited edition cigar and I don't need someone else trying to override my preferences with their own preferences. When Habanos SA receives your warnings, I hope they ignore them. Rather than accepting your marketing predictions which are based on your personal preferences, I am inclined to believe they will look back and see what consumers have actually been buying and base their decisions on historical facts.

You state that it is a fact that they are not producing superior cigars for the premium prices. Far be it from me to disagree with you, but, that is a subjective opinion and not a fact.

And then, you've made the rule, "unless you work for Habanos SA, then I'll kindly request that you keep your comments in check..." You don't work for Habanos SA either! How come you're free to make comments and I'm not? And who made you boss?

I have more to say about the issue and perhaps I'll treat you (laugh here) to some more of my perspectives soon. Please understand, I hold no animosity towards you and I mean no disrespect. I'm just expressing my views which are contrary to yours. If I'm ever up in your neck of the woods, I'll buy ya a beer.

Catch you later.

P.W.

[Tampa1257]

<<>>

Sorry, but this last comment is totally speculative conjuncture on your part. Since the Cigar Boom years, the ability of the consumer to readily purchase properly aged Habanos has transferred from the manufacturer/retailer/tobacconist to the end user/consumer. Therefore, The marketing arm of Altadis once joined with Habanos S.A. created a product with the false impression that because the cigars were Edición Limitada’s, that they were using superior aged and premium tobacco demanding a premium price point. This satisfied the retailer who was meeting the in house consumer’s needs with supplying the latest and “greatest” new items from Cuba. I have never said that there should not be Edición Limitada’s, my argument has been the inflated and unrealistic price arbitrary placed upon them strictly due to the name. The overall quality and flavor performance of them has for the most part been substandard at best. I have smoked my fair share of every EL released except this years; therefore, my experience with them while vast is not complete. This does not deter from my ability to have an educated and experienced opinion about them.

<<>>

My statement was “In my humble opinion, it is not only our right, but a solemn duty and obligation for us as passionate Habanos smokers and buyers to give Habanos S.A. the foreknowledge of what their actions are having with the market.” This statement refers back to an earlier statement that I may and firmly believe; “Actually, somebody needs to tell Habanos S.A. that we, the passionate Habanos Smoker is tired of fad's and simply want a well constructed cigar to smoke. Consistent flavors, each and every time we pick up a cigar to smoke. We want Value, we want taste, we want complexity, we want acceptable draws, we want to enjoy our cigars. We don't give a tinkers damn about if the cigar is an EL or a regular production, but make the cigars consistently and price them fairly. Jacking the consumer around with a EL and priced Far Beyond reasonable acceptability is bringing the masses of passionate Cuban cigar smokers together and we demand that they deliver a quality product. I have said this before, but Habanos S.A. needs to hear that the vast majority of smokers is telling them that they have gone too far, and it is time to grab hold of the rains and get a hold of the marketing arm before it goes totally out of control and hurts and damages the day in and day out Cuban Cigar Smokers.” There are choices out there in the retail market, and the tobacconist makes his (or her) business decisions upon what turns on the shelf. I understand that, but what I do not understand is the “love affair” of people spending absurd money on a sub par product. It just doesn’t make any since to me. I will go back and repeat a very important part of this whole debate………….” We want Value, we want taste, we want complexity, we want acceptable draws, we want to enjoy our cigars. We don't give a tinkers damn about if the cigar is an EL or a regular production, but make the cigars consistently and price them fairly.”

<<< Personally, I like the opportunity to choose to buy the occasional limited edition cigar and I don't need someone else trying to override my preferences with their own preferences.>>>

Frankly Passing of Wind, you have your ability to make an intelligent argument about your preferences in what you enjoy, as I do. I have the right to discuss my opinion, and I will exercise that right.

<<>>

I hope that they listen to the Consumer and make an intelligent decision that will stimulate the market as well as produce a Consistent cigar that is fairly priced , that has great flavor and complex. I hope that whatever they do, that it provides a realistic VALUE to the consumer

<<>>

If you listen to the vast majority of the habanophiles, the overall opinion has been the same as what I have voiced. Even Rob agrees that the ELs have been sub par at best.

<<>

If you care to review any of my comments, I have stated clearly that I am voicing my opinion. Your comment was voiced as a statement of fact, there is a huge difference! I never said that I was an all knowing expert on any subject, but I am an opinionated passionate Habanos Smoker and Collector that speaks my mind. The issue about your comment could have easily been avoided by stating that your thoughts were “In your Opinion”, not as a statement of fact as it was previously stated.

<<>>

I also hold no animosity toward you, and I agree that we do not agree on the subject. I believe strongly that I have voiced the un-spoken thoughts of the majority that buy and smoke Habanos.

[Ken Gargett]

hi all

apologies for being absent from the forum so much of late - been away then fishing then away again. will try and catch up on the weekend and next week.

meanwhile, you turn your back for a few days and the whole thing turns into world championship virtual wrestling. rob is going to sack me when he is back - i was supposed to be in control.

i have not had time to read all through this but it does strike me that everyone should have a fairly clear view of the thoughts re the gringo comment on all sides and that we really could just completely drop all that crap and concentrate on the issues.

i think that one of the reasons that most people click into this forum (certainly why i do) is that it is fun with a top bunch of guys who do have different opinions. if it turns nasty then i for one will very quickly lose interest - and i'll bet i won't eb the only one. i think we probably all say things that are perhaps somewhat inappropriate at times (and may i take this opportunity to sincerely apologise to any and all kiwis that i may have in any way offended at any time - seriously) so perhaps we could limit this thread to views on LE's and exy cigars. i'll get rob to set up a separate 'bag kiwis' forum.

[Colt45]

» ........................................ we really could just completely drop all

» that crap and concentrate on the issues.

» i think that one of the reasons that most people click into this forum

» (certainly why i do) is that it is fun with a top bunch of guys who do

» have different opinions. if it turns nasty then i for one will very

» quickly lose interest - and i'll bet i won't eb the only one.

Nail on the head - Thank You.

[jay8354]

Welcome Back Ken. Was getting worried there.

This post is very interesting, with Cigar lovers all around the world having a say.

Now the issue is controversial and heated, since it seems like everyone has a view of whether Expensive Cigars and EL's are worth the money for the product that they are.

I have to admit, this post was starting to look like a lot flaming with facts and opinions mixed it.

Just glad that the Moderator is back and lets keep things civilised as Cigar lovers are.

[Tampa1257]

Welcome back from your fishing trip Ken.

I promiss to play nice LOL, but I guess I am still an opinionated guy that believes with all my heart the message I am trying to convey.:-D