Not Cool...Upmann Mag50 & Hoyo Epi Esp !!

[Fatcigar]

Am i the only guy who felt this way...HSA releasing current production of Upmann Mag 50 & Hoyo Epicure Esp this year after they were listed as 'Edicion Limitada', guess Cuban Limited Edition does not mean the same as in English !!

Especially using the same names mean they are the same blend...major worldwide sales in Mag50 !

Definitely NOT COOL .... :crying:

[brian1]

I agree, it seems to be the trend now. Limited Editions and rare are meaningless terms from Habanos S.A. On the other hand if you missed something first time around you need not worry.

» Am i the only guy who felt this way...HSA releasing current production of

» Upmann Mag 50 & Hoyo Epicure Esp this year after they were listed as

» 'Edicion Limitada', guess Cuban Limited Edition does not mean the same as

» in English !!

»

» Especially using the same names mean they are the same blend...major

» worldwide sales in Mag50 !

»

» Definitely NOT COOL .... :crying:

[n2advnture]

» Am i the only guy who felt this way...HSA releasing current production of

» Upmann Mag 50 & Hoyo Epicure Esp this year after they were listed as

» 'Edicion Limitada', guess Cuban Limited Edition does not mean the same as

» in English !!

»

» Especially using the same names mean they are the same blend...major

» worldwide sales in Mag50 !

»

» Definitely NOT COOL .... :crying:

Completely agree...they got their inflated $ with the "RE" & "LE" labels and now are trying to squeeze a little more out of it.

I think that in the long run, they will lose $ by GREATLY diluting the "RE", "LE", etc...label and pushing away those who like to try to gather them all.

I bet you with this move and the re-re-releasing of "RE"/"LE" smokes that they will see a back lash from those who purchased them originally but not purchasing any more and going back to just buying regular production items.

No greater way to piss off your customers IMHO

~M

[Colt45]

» Am i the only guy who felt this way...HSA releasing current production of

» Upmann Mag 50 & Hoyo Epicure Esp this year after they were listed as

» 'Edicion Limitada',

I think it's called assuming the position. I've recently decided that the REs / ELs are not for me.

[tigger]

» I think it's called assuming the position. I've recently decided that the

» REs / ELs are not for me.

You say that now, but when the 72 x 4.15" Bolivar Granada de la Mierda Exclusivo Sudan comes out in '09, like white on rice, you'll be on the first plane to Khartoum. :-D

I've largely been avoiding the ELs/REs in recent years. Had to bite on the RA Estupendos in '06 (glad I did) and almost got away with nothing last year, until certain members of this board kicked a couple of Trini Ingenios my way. Had to put up a box of those to see what they're like in a few years.

HSA will likely realize that they're making a mistake in the long run.

Reminds me of a time a bunch of years ago when I worked in direct marketing for a company that had extensive licensing with Disney. Reps from the Mouse actually came to our offices and did a presentation about how protective they are of their brand because they had allowed it to get really debased previously. I'm a bit hazy, but the presentation included a photo of either Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck brand sausage. It got to the point where the brand had lost its punch because it was being whored out everywhere.

[SonGoku]

» » I think it's called assuming the position. I've recently decided that

» the

» » REs / ELs are not for me.

»

» You say that now, but when the 72 x 4.15" Bolivar Granada de la Mierda

» Exclusivo Sudan comes out in '09, like white on rice, you'll be on the

» first plane to Khartoum. :-D

»

:lol3: sounds tasty

Anyway I would guess that the tobacco especially the wrapper on the regulaer production release have not been aged as much as the ones used in the 2005 EL??? Can anyone verify this???

[brian1]

This re-release policy also makes a mockery of numbering the original boxes.... Its misleading at the very least to imply a limited release with the numbering and then come back again with another round.

The distributor's should be up front with their plans for total production.

[n2advnture]

» This re-release policy also makes a mockery of numbering the original

» boxes.... Its misleading at the very least to imply a limited release with

» the numbering and then come back again with another round.

»

» The distributor's should be up front with their plans for total

» production.

I would think that the vendors would start getting po'd as well, it makes them look like tools when they promote products as being "numbered" and "limited" productions.

~M

[Colt45]

Well, I guess we've gone around on this subject in the past. Money seems to be the bottom line.

If people are willing to pay, these cigars in their various guises will continue to be produced.

» Anyway I would guess that the tobacco especially the wrapper on the

» regulaer production release have not been aged as much as the ones used in

» the 2005 EL??? Can anyone verify this???

Current regular production reportedly uses aged fillers - three year ligero, two year seco, one

year volado.

» You say that now, but when the 72 x 4.15" Bolivar Granada de la Mierda

» Exclusivo Sudan comes out in '09, like white on rice, you'll be on the

» first plane to Khartoum. :-D

You've got me pegged :-D

[Jimmy2]

I was told they are not the same blend and they dont have the same wrapper as the ELs.

[Ken Gargett]

» I was told they are not the same blend and they dont have the same wrapper

» as the ELs.

i believe this is correct. they want an upmarket line for upmann and saw this a a good way to do it.

i believe that they are using the LE and RE lines as indicators, as well as tickets to print money, for future releases.

there are quite a few of th LE's i love and as posted, i think that the monte sublimes are future classics. i think that the 08's are a terrific bunch and worth chasing when they come out in a few months. i'm pleased that they are back to only three a year.

as for RE's, have had far less experience with these (obvious reason of accessibility) and some good ones but to me, far more mixed in quality. random was the word used elsewhere i think. and i think that there are so many of them now that they will have less long term appeal than the LE's and perhaps even, on the annual release, word wll go around about which are god and there will be a mad dash for them leaving the others to languish. i'd have no problem seeing habanos cut the number of these in a big way. maybe one for the amricas, one asia-pac and one europe. at the moment, think they have this out of kilter.

personally, i'm always vry keen to try the new LE's but rather ambivalent about the RE's.

[El Presidente]

» I was told they are not the same blend and they dont have the same wrapper

» as the ELs.

Blend is the same (as much as possible considering different crop etc). Wrapper is not aged any more than any other current release.

I may get some noses out of joint but there is nothing I say here that has not been said to HSA in person.

The influence of Altadis in HSA has been overwhelming positive. Better tobacco, better cigars, planning for the next 10 years as opposed to the next 10 weeks. Better packaging, the release of RE and EL etc etc.

Yet, they have over the past two years begun to confuse the market on the back of nothing more (as far as I can see) than greed.

French re-release of RA Belicoso as a Regional....you have to be kidding me!

We have all seen the current credit bubble and the effect on economies and markets. What we are seeing in HSA is a "Premium bubble" which threatens to kill the goose which laid the Golden egg. The only thing which is saving them is that some of the EL and RE cigars being released are actually bloody fantastic. Sales are strong and while the overall market is not growing, their ROI per stick has increased and so has profits. While EL and RE fly off the shelves they will continue the onslaught and they will continue to push the envelope in terms of price. They make no secret of this.

One only had to go to the festival this year to realise how thin their marketing strategy is. It is almost juvenile albeit it is wrapped in a veneer of exclusivity.

Yet, when you come across a cigar such as the Monte Sublime for 08 you do question whether your thought processes are wrong. What a magnificent cigar. They are doing the production side very well.

What I would like to see done:

1. No re -release of Regionals for 5 years.

2. Each regional distributor has only one Regional Release every 12 months.

3. Each Regional Release is capped at 100,000 units (4000 boxes of 25 or whatever boxing format they wish).

4. Limited Editions capped at 20,000 boxes while maintaining three a year. No re-release of Limited editions for 10 years.

[Colt45]

» Yet, when you come across a cigar such as the Monte Sublime for 08 you do

» question whether your thought processes are wrong. What a magnificent

» cigar. They are doing the production side very well.

I hope I can articulate my thoughts without sounding like I'm having a whinge....

As an example, the Montecristo Sublime may be a great cigar, but given the state of RE / EL re-releases,

it loses it's luster and air of exclusivity. I really won't feel I've missed anything if I never try one.

I won't chase them.

On top of that, quality-wise, I still feel it's a crap shoot for proper construction every time I light

up a Havana. I still cross my fingers when I take those first draws.

And just to add insult to injury, with the continued increase in prices of not just cigars, but life staples,

along with the devalued dollar, and the stagnation of personal income, I personally have to choose

cigars carefully. I'd rather spend what I'm able on cigars that I know I will enjoy.

I consider myself a cigar smoker - not a collector or connoisseur. I don't feel that urge down deep

that would have me jumping at every new release.

Having bored with all that I don't begrudge HSA or anyone who enjoys these releases.

[El Presidente]

» » Yet, when you come across a cigar such as the Monte Sublime for 08 you

» do

» » question whether your thought processes are wrong. What a magnificent

» » cigar. They are doing the production side very well.

»

» I hope I can articulate my thoughts without sounding like I'm having a

» whinge....

»

» As an example, the Montecristo Sublime may be a great cigar, but given the

» state of RE / EL re-releases,

» it loses it's luster and air of exclusivity. I really won't feel I've

» missed anything if I never try one.

» I won't chase them.

»

» On top of that, quality-wise, I still feel it's a crap shoot for proper

» construction every time I light

» up a Havana. I still cross my fingers when I take those first draws.

»

» And just to add insult to injury, with the continued increase in prices of

» not just cigars, but life staples,

» along with the devalued dollar, and the stagnation of personal income, I

» personally have to choose

» cigars carefully. I'd rather spend what I'm able on cigars that I know I

» will enjoy.

»

» I consider myself a cigar smoker - not a collector or connoisseur. I don't

» feel that urge down deep

» that would have me jumping at every new release.

» Having bored with all that I don't begrudge HSA or anyone who enjoys these

» releases.

Ross I agree in the main. However, great cigars will always have buyers. If the Monte Sublime maintains the blend and integrity which we tasted a few weeks ago then regarldess of price they will sell quickly. For the RR and EL to maintain its "saleability" HSA will need to continue to release exceptional cigars. I don't think producing "good" cigars will cut it anymore. Too many of past EL releases have been "good" cigars. Cohiba DC EL/Cohiba 2006 Piramide/HDM LE Piramide/Partagas Piramide/original PSD3 EL/ were all exceptional cigars (I missed a few others).

From a marketing paper I submitted in 2006.

"Habanos s.a runs the real risk of alienating the true cigar smoker. The taxi driver, the teacher, the doctor, the engineer who make the effort of purchasing one or two cigars per week. He makes this effort because he has a passion for the Habanos puro and he does it in the face of icreasing legislative difficulties.

This man has a 25 count humidor on his desk. His commitments of family and work do not permit him the opportunity of purchasing a $500 or $1000 box of Limited Edition cigars. He purchases his two Monte 4's or one Cohiba Robusto a week to enjoy, not at his Divan...but on his deck or porch at home where for an hour he is transported to a cerebral place of peace and harmony.

Understandably, today he questions his importance to Habanos s.a. in a world of $1000 Edicion Limitada's and $30,000 Cohiba Behike humidors while his staple cigars battle with construction/blend consistency and others are discontinued. I understand the strides being made to rectify the construction and blend issues and yet I am concerned that the "Campaign for Product Exclusivity" will fatten bottom line profits, but irrepairably thin the number of grass root zealots.

The fatal flaw in the current marketing direction as I see it is that while Habanos s.a receives kudos in Hong Kong, Geneva and Dubai...the battle for hearts and minds of the average cigar lover is being lost in the cities, towns and streets which you do not know exist. "

[Colt45]

» Ross I agree in the main. However, great cigars will always have buyers.

No disagreement here - I'd fall into that category. But wouldn't it make a little sense to strive for

great cigars across the board, without the need for an extra band, and the inflated price?

That aside, I fully understand their strategy as you've explained it, and very much appreciate that

you've been willing to share this type of information with us over the past few years.

You're '06 letter hits home, and I don't think could have been better written.

Perhaps the day will come when HSA does have competition in the Havana cigar market,

and might have to rethink some of their strategies.

[Alberto]

» From a marketing paper I submitted in 2006.

»

» "Habanos s.a runs the real risk of alienating the true cigar smoker. The

» taxi driver, the teacher, the doctor, the engineer who make the effort of

» purchasing one or two cigars per week. He makes this effort because he has

» a passion for the Habanos puro and he does it in the face of icreasing

» legislative difficulties.

» This man has a 25 count humidor on his desk. His commitments of family and

» work do not permit him the opportunity of purchasing a $500 or $1000 box of

» Limited Edition cigars. He purchases his two Monte 4's or one Cohiba

» Robusto a week to enjoy, not at his Divan...but on his deck or porch at

» home where for an hour he is transported to a cerebral place of peace and

» harmony.

» Understandably, today he questions his importance to Habanos s.a. in a

» world of $1000 Edicion Limitada's and $30,000 Cohiba Behike humidors while

» his staple cigars battle with construction/blend consistency and others are

» discontinued. I understand the strides being made to rectify the

» construction and blend issues and yet I am concerned that the "Campaign

» for Product Exclusivity" will fatten bottom line profits, but irrepairably

» thin the number of grass root zealots.

» The fatal flaw in the current marketing direction as I see it is that

» while Habanos s.a receives kudos in Hong Kong, Geneva and Dubai...the

» battle for hearts and minds of the average cigar lover is being lost in

» the cities, towns and streets which you do not know exist. "

I think you have hit the nail on the head and have accurately described who I am and how I feel.

I have made box purchases of the cigars that I love and even one or two of the EL in the early years when they were released.

But these kind of purchases are not the norm. Buying 3 to 6 of my favourite smokes and slowly building up a small stash in my 30 count desktop humidor is the norm... and we pay top dollar for these purchases at our local Habanos outlets because we are not buying them by the boxes or in "big quantities" to qualify for discounts.

So in you own words... Habanos s.a battle for hearts and minds of the average cigar lover is being lost in the cities, towns and streets which they do not know exist.

Thank goodness that there are still people like you who care about the small purchases we make to sustain and realise our passion for cuban cigars.

[Fatcigar]

» French re-release of RA Belicoso as a Regional....you have to be kidding

» me!

That is called "Stealing from your family members" !!!

> Current production of ex-EL Upmann Mag50 & Hoyo Epi Esp... <

That is called "Raping your customers" !!!

However, HSA is a group which controls a lot of brands so even there are abuses or problems, they can be isolated to the specific brand(s). Don't get me wrong, i love CCs...& will continue to buy great smokes ! :-)

HSA is a house of brands, just like LVMH etc.

Customer profiles should be segmented into regular smokers and collectors (those crazy guys who want to build a museum!). Brands & vitola should be matched accordingly. Fundamental principles of marketing should be applied so brand images are maintained & cherished.

Fxxk, i feel like a business consultant...i am just a stupid CC smoker who care enough for CC that wouldn't like to see them screwed up a good thing !! :lol3:

[cvm4]

I never heard this backlash over the Partagas P2. But, when they were released it wasn't common practice for HSA to re-release countless number of cigars.

[Colt45]

» I never heard this backlash over the Partagas P2.

But the PSP2 was not an EL or RE. There was what is sometimes referred to as the initial release,

and as more were produced they were made available.

ELs on the other hand, were supposed to be limited editions, which they obviously are not.

Then look at the French re-release of the previously U.K. only RA Belicoso RE. What next,

a re-release of the Cohiba Piramide EL? Ooops, already done that.