Lounge Lizards This Week: Stoic Cigars Equanimity in Courage with twelve years aged Macallan Double Cask Collection Single Malt/HSA + Prisoners/Reddit/Building a cigar company

[El Presidente]

 

The Lizards pair the Stoic Cigars Equanimity in Courage with twelve years aged Macallan Double Cask Collection Single Malt Scotch Whisky. The guys share their interview with Stoic Cigars Owner Vance Taylor, recorded at PCA 2025, where they discuss the brand’s origins, Vance's collaborative blending process in the DR with Klaas Kelner, and how he’s using unique technology to connect with cigar smokers. PLUS: Habanos S.A. Confirms NGO Prison Labor Report, Lizards on Reddit, Drew Estate/Joya de Nicaragua Distribution Split, Building a Cigar Company & Cigar Industry Sues California Attorney General

 

 

 

[NYGuido]

Holy hell, I won Lizard of the Week! I am freaking buzzing right now, absolutely stoked, honored, and just completely thrilled. Thank you so much, @LizardGizmo and all of the Lounge Lizards!

Fantastic episode, as always. I so enjoyed the discussion with Vance Taylor and am looking forward to trying the Equanimity once I finish my palate recovery journey in about a week. Thrilled to see another independent cigar maker doing so well and putting out such fantastic products; Hamlet, Rob, and the Fab5 team have some company in the kickass, accessibly priced cigar market, which I think is wonderful for all of us smokers.

[JDoughty]

Listening now with a Nudie Churchill while processing acorns and sipping some Elijah Craig barrel proof. Good combo all around.  I'll have to try that cigar they're praising for sure, though there's already too damn many sticks on my want to taste list while my humidors are piled high. 😆

[NYGuido]

6 hours ago, JDoughty said:

Listening now with a Nudie Churchill while processing acorns and sipping some Elijah Craig barrel proof. Good combo all around.  I'll have to try that cigar they're praising for sure, though there's already too damn many sticks on my want to taste list while my humidors are piled high. 😆

@JDoughty, they really DO make me want to try all of the cigars they're smoking, and I try to smoke along with them when I haven't had one before. Even the bad ones turn out fun because I feel like part of the crew when I'm having the same...disappointing experience they do. But yeah, I totally get having too many new things to try while still fitting in the cigars I already love and have. These are good problems, though. 

[MrBirdman]

I’ve shared some of my thoughts on this elsewhere on the forum, but I’d like to directly respond to your request for listener feedback on the prison labor news:

I dramatically slowed my CC acquisition in 2023, and my latest box code is a NOV 2023 box of Monte 4, which is one of a handful of cigars I was prepared to continue buying - even at today’s absurd prices - because they’re so central to my core rotation. No more. If any of my box codes overlapped with the alleged forced labor, they’d be headed to Bond Roberts. Habanos had already sapped much of the enjoyment from CC by transforming them from a delightful hobby accessible to most into a luxury lifestyle accessory - and smoking one that may have been rolled by forced hands would inspire dismay and discomfort rather than enjoyment. 

And let’s be clear about something: this is not the same as US prisoners being forced to make license plates. For the record, the US allows forced prison labor despite banning import of goods similarly produced elsewhere. US prisons are, by Western standards, often not role models of ethical incarceration - but at least they are not populated by large numbers of political prisoners. 

This revelation also underscores what a charade HSA’s luxury rebranding has become. The target market for Habanos probably won’t care about the ethical implications of forced labor any more than they already care about buying a “super-luxury” product that is frequently defective. Habanos no longer wants you to focus on the actual cigar. That’s why so many of the new releases are bland - their job is to be unobjectionable while the band does all the heavy lifting. Indeed, it’s fitting that one of their unofficial brand ambassadors, Kirby Allison, has admitted he can’t really taste cigars (see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4tjMEYkaW0Y at 21:00). 

So, to conclude, I’m done with buying Cuban cigars. Thank you for bringing attention to this story.

— Brett

[NYGuido]

13 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

This revelation also underscores what a charade HSA’s luxury rebranding has become. The target market for Habanos probably won’t care about the ethical implications of forced labor any more than they already care about buying a “super-luxury” product that is frequently defective. Habanos no longer wants you to focus on the actual cigar. That’s why so many of the new releases are bland - their job is to be unobjectionable while the band does all the heavy lifting. Indeed, it’s fitting that one of their unofficial brand ambassadors, Kirby Allison, has admitted he can’t really taste cigars (see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4tjMEYkaW0Y at 21:00). 

Yeah, this for sure is particularly irksome about the whole story. And no, the new target market---the ultra rich in countries that, themselves, see no issue with forced labor of political prisoners---won't care. In fact, they likely see it as a deserved comeuppance for those who dare speak out against the regimes that made these individuals so rich in the first place. Add that into HSA's overall strategy of positioning their product as a luxury item more than as a quality item and there is a real recipe for decreased Western consumption.

I can't find it, but I think @LizardGizmo also commented on Reddit that this may serve as a catalyst for European countries (which have increasingly hostile attitudes toward smoking, anyway) to explore banning Cuban cigars for human rights reasons. Not that I think HSA would care; Asia could absorb all of that production rather easily and I bet would do so willingly.

Having been excited by Cuban cigars for years but only getting fully into them recently, this whole thing is sad and a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the human rights abuses (now confirmed), quality issues, and pricing structure are annoying and awful and dissuade me from purchasing more. On the other hand, the Cuban people already are suffering so much that I worry about taking away what little money they do make from producing Cigars and think that any economic impact will be felt by the normal Cuban people way more than the ruling elite.

[MrBirdman]

5 minutes ago, NYGuido said:

On the other hand, the Cuban people already are suffering so much that I worry about taking away what little money they do make from producing Cigars

I might agree if I thought that the workers were meaningfully benefiting from the revenue. They’re struggling as much as ever despite record earnings - meanwhile Diaz has bought a private jet. 

[JDoughty]

13 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

And let’s be clear about something: this is not the same as US prisoners being forced to make license plates. For the record, the US allows the practice despite banning import of goods similarly produced elsewhere. US prisons are, by Western standards, often not role models of ethical incarceration - but they are not populated by large numbers of political prisoners. 

The target market for Habanos probably won’t care about the ethical implications of forced labor any more than they already care about buying a “super-luxury” product that is frequently defective. Habanos no longer wants you to focus on the actual cigar. That’s why so many of the new releases are bland - their job is to be unobjectionable while the band does all the heavy lifting. Indeed, it’s fitting that one of their unofficial brand ambassadors, Kirby Allison, has admitted he can’t really taste cigars (see https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4tjMEYkaW0Y at 21:00). 

There are much, much creepier and more corrupt practices going on with prison labor in all countries than is easily visible, with the US being no exception. We're not the good guys. Maybe we're not the absolute worst of the bad guys on the world stage, but that is an awfully low bar. And 'everyone does it' is not a good excuse. The Cuban situation specifically withcigars is likely to be significantly worse, specifically because anyone with real talent in the cigar industry who isn't locked up is fairly likely to yeet themselves TF out of the country ASAP since they can find work in other cigar factories in safer countries. They've been suffering from massive brain drain for decades for this reason. From a purely commercial and unethical point of view, a captive labor population is the perfect solution to this decades old problem. I don't see them giving up on a perfect solution any time soon regardless of external sanctions. 

I'm not really sure why someone who can not taste a cigar bothers to smoke them. I suppose it's part of the sartorial lifestyle where people dress just so according to the rules of fashion, display status symbols of wealth and power, and micromanage themselves into rigid social conformity with every movement and word on public display to be judged under the scrutinizing gaze of your peers. IMO cigars are supposed to be enjoyable and relaxing, and all of that seems quite as far as one can possibly get from either of those things. I care about exactly one thing in a cigar, and that is the sensory experience of smoking it. Can't even fathom the waste of someone smoking a vintage Davidoff or Dunhill without being able to taste it, just using it as a fashion accessory. 

[LizardGizmo]

7 minutes ago, JDoughty said:

Can't even fathom the waste of someone smoking a vintage Davidoff or Dunhill without being able to taste it, just using it as a fashion accessory. 

You just described the exact type of customer Habanos S.A. wants.

[NYGuido]

3 minutes ago, LizardGizmo said:

You just described the exact type of customer Habanos S.A. wants.

Then they've joined the pantheon of once-storied brands that have become more about the sizzle than the steak (See also, e.g., Rolex, Louis Vuitton, Gucci, etc.). It really makes the great, new cigar makers like Vance from Stoic--and wonderful, existing makers like the Padron family and Rob & Hamlet--much more important to the hobby and a LOT easier to support. I feel good when I spend my money on their products. I've amassed my Cuban collection--45 boxes--only over the past 4-6 months and, after the HSA confirmation, have a bit of trouble looking at them now.

[JDoughty]

6 minutes ago, LizardGizmo said:

You just described the exact type of customer Habanos S.A. wants.

Oh hell no. Get in, losers, we're raiding the Sahakian humidors at midnight. 😆

[NYGuido]

1 minute ago, JDoughty said:

Oh hell no. Get in, losers, we're raiding the Sahakian humidors at midnight. 😆

Midnight London time? Might be able to hop a flight by then 🤣

[JDoughty]

12 hours ago, NYGuido said:

Then they've joined the pantheon of once-storied brands that have become more about the sizzle than the steak (See also, e.g., Rolex, Louis Vuitton, Gucci, etc.). It really makes the great, new cigar makers like Vance from Stoic--and wonderful, existing makers like the Padron family and Rob & Hamlet--much more important to the hobby and a LOT easier to support. I feel good when I spend my money on their products. I've amassed my Cuban collection--45 boxes--only over the past 4-6 months and, after the HSA confirmation, have a bit of trouble looking at them now.

While there is definitely a lot more sizzle than steak with deliberately manipulated shortages and marketing practices, at least some of the high end watches are legitimately well crafted products with durability and utility. The whole high end purse and clothing thing, though, that just boggles me. If I want to carry around more s**t than will fit in my pockets, I put it in a bag. They make perfectly serviceable ones at the grocery store for $1.99. $5.99 for the washable ones that last longer. If I'm hiking or hunting and need a quality backpack that can carry a lot more shit and evenly distribute the weight, I'll gladly spend a couple hundred bucks for the functionality. Same with hunting and other outdoor clothes where performance matters, though there's also some stupidly priced prestige brand crap in this market that isn't necessarily better on the high performance end. (cough cough Sitka cough cough) But a bag or a shirt that costs the same as a car payment and doesn't actually DO anything other than advertise that you are stupid enough to spend a shitload of money on useless crap? Are these people brain damaged or what? 

I don't know quite how to feel about my current Cuban cigars likely being rolled by prison labor. It doesn't make me feel good about buying more, especially with so many excellent NW alternatives. Realistically, I'm not sure that my small purchases from grey market vendors are going to have any great effect on the Cuban government, whether I make them or refuse to make them.

[NYGuido]

2 minutes ago, JDoughty said:

While there is definitely a lot more sizzle than steak with deliberately manipulated shortages and marketing practices, at least some of the high end watches are legitimately well crafted products with durability and utility. 

Oh for sure. I was gifted a Patek by partners at my former law firm, and it’s exquisite. As is my Parmigiani. My citing of Rolex was simply because all their AD games and faux scarcity stuff that results in higher secondary market pricing. Kinda like HSA, though the scarcity there doesn’t feel as false. 
 

Agree with all the rest of your comment

[TomsRibs210]

Another stellar podcast by our boys, the Lounge Lizards. The Cuban cigar segment was well-done, and the commenters above provided much smarter insight than I could offer. I look forward to trying out the new Stoic cigar, as the last was a home run. The interview with Vance was an easy listen, which was refreshing because he fit in with the natural chemistry of the group. 

This episode covered some heavy topics but done with typical savvy and wit of the crew. It reminded me of the night when you prepare to attend a class reunion with your significant other who does not know any of your classmates. You face the natural trepidation as you think about what it will be like seeing the changes in those you've not seen because jobs and families have taken you in different paths. You too wonder what new they will see in you. As you walk through the halls of your school, you recognize that everything seems smaller than you remembered and the familiar smell of the corridor strikes in you a wistful nostalgia. You smirk, squeezing the hand of your loved one, and think of the person you once were and who you will be for the next reunion next decade. You hear the song that was the big Top 40 hit the summer before your senior year playing loudly, interrupted only by loud, familiar laughter. You walk into the old gymnasium where you immediately see friendly faces with broad smiles greet you as you enter. They pull you in for a big embrace or to whisper an inside joke you've not thought about in years. -- the same feeling Rooster had at his first class reunion shortly before the war of 1812. 

[ElLoboLoco]

Cuba is using prison labor to produce a luxury goods. The worst optics ever for the luxury brand, I don’t think you could do any worse if you tried. Wait, you can. They are price gouging to arguably launder money.

But the buyers line up to buy the tobacco with “magic” terroir regardless.

 

[wathabanos]

On 10/22/2025 at 1:01 PM, LizardGizmo said:

You just described the exact type of customer Habanos S.A. wants.

If that's true, they might as well start buying up Gurkha's and slapping a Cohiba band on it.

[JDoughty]

2 hours ago, wathabanos said:

If that's true, they might as well start buying up Gurkha's and slapping a Cohiba band on it.

I mean, if they're gonna go that far, I have some leaf mulch in my backyard they can roll up for free. Tastes about the same IMO.